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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2006 - 11:11am PT
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So my partner and I came across an ethical dilemma a week ago. We were climbing Reanimator and on the 5th pitch there was one rusty blade, and one orange alien in a flake that would have broken should I fall on it, then about 6 fixed heads before some A3+ hooking and 3 rivits before another "reachy hook".
After breaking off the only viable hook placement I found on the last move of the A3+ hooking before the 3 rivits I whipped onto 2 equalized heads that the party before us bailed off of (evidenced by a locking biner on them and biners on all stations below that). I then hooked as high as I could that the remaining features could take, cheater sticked to the first rivit, then got to the third rivit.
The "reachy hook" move above however, HAD COMPLETELY BROKEN OFF. There was about a 4"x10" dirt mark in a grove above the rivit about where a reachy hook move would be. I tried to cheater stick past all of it, but could not get a biner in the loop of the #1 head up there. So now came the time to make a decision. We only had 2 bolts with us, they were 3/8". Not the kind of stuff that belongs on that route, but we brought them to beef up belays should that be needed.
We had 3 options:
1) Drill a bat hook or two: It was a bit overhanging, and I don't believe in bat hooks holes, especially on a trade route like that.
2) Drill and place a 3/8" bolt on a route that was done in the 1990's by a very VOCAL first ascentionist who is still actively climbing and putting up hard routes.
3) Bail.
We bailed. It was very easy to do (2 raps), I later found out we were the 4th party to do so, and the party before me who bailed has done much harder routes than I have, and I didn't feel right drilling on that route.
So my question to you is:
Should we have placed that bolt? Sure we should have had rivits, but we didn't. Something will have to be drilled up there to pass that point. Although I have never placed a bolt, that route was well within our abilities (i.e. We were not in over our head) and would have done my best to put in a good bolt, then would have written about it on here to see if it should be chopped.
Had this been 15-20 pitches up on El Cap on the three routes I have done (NA, TT, Zod) can assure you that we would NOT have bailed, but instead placed the bolt.
So in a situation like this, What Would Grossman Do?
What would YOU do?
Respectfully,
Addiroids
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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IMO:
For one, not taking anything smaller than a 3/8" bolt is pretty poor prep. Rivets come out all the time.... Planning to beef belays is fine and dandy, but it is more likely that a blown bathook or flattened rivet will be the reason for drilling.
Hooking features come off too. You guys should have had some sort of plan for this eventuality besides rapping off.
On to the dilema:
What I would have done, (of course this takes in to account that hook move is really gone, there are no others, and NO OTHER WAY to get past the section) is drill a bat hook hole with the fat 3/8 and very shallow. (since I would have only had 3/8" drill) Then when I got down, let everyone know that that spot is going to need a rivet and spread the word so the next guys up there can make it good in the same spot with a rivet.
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WBraun
climber
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Me
I would have blasted that big ass 3/8 bolt in there and kept on going. I would have said shove it up your hypocritically asses if someone took me up on it.
Well there goes the Evangelist church and preachers of Rock .......
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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If you're talking about these heads, I think I was the first to bail off them this fall. I didn't get above the second hook move as my ropes and aiders were blowing sideways and twisting, and I developed an attitude.
The second time I lowered off I replaced this RunnerOfDeath® with a RealRunner®.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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I'm one of the four parties that bailed off of reanimator at the point where the feature was gone.
The party before me, 3 Sweeds, pulled off a block, with the leader taking quite a whip and came down when they couldn't get thru. I am pretty sure this was the "Reachy Hook" though the hooking just before that also showed a dirt patch and some drilled hooks. I did not bring the topo on the pitch so I can't be sure.
I had machine head rivits, 1/4 inch bolts and a coupla 3/8ths but didn't place them. Mainly, I thought someone else might have the balls to get thru it on bat hooks, but I didn't b/c of the overhang and and fall potential (onto a slab-out), so I came down.
I don't want to be the moron that has to live with putting rivits on someone elses route where a better climber could have climbed it, well, better.
Seems to me like machine head rivits would be in keeping with the "spirit" of the route, but as it is in the middle of one of the hooking cruxes, perhaps a drilled hook is more in keeping with the "spirit" of the pitch?
That said, It's Klaus and Walt's FA, so maybe Klaus can chime in with an opinion.
-Kate.
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WBraun
climber
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Oh? hehehe
Klaus and Walt's route? Well Walt blasted in 4 anchor bolts on one of my FA, that didn't have any there. Not that I ever gave a sh#t.
So the church of Evangelicalism of rock is true, hehehe
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Why would SG have anything to do with this? It's not his route. He has only posted a handfull of times. There are plenty of guys that climb harder that post regularly, including klaus, who was part of the FA.
Regardless, without SG being here, he'd probably only say "Sack up!"
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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fwiw, Reanimator was put up by Klaus and Walt Shipley. Not Steve Grossman.
ask Klaus.
(edit) ooops, I repeated what was stated above.
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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RE: STEVE GROSSMAN
Yes, I know Kohl and Shipley put up the first ascent, but I figured since Grossman chose to call out Ammon on HIS ethical purity for nailing a blade on a nailing route in Zion instead of going for the magical blind nut placement around a corner that was only discovered recently on the first clean ascent, he would probably have something to say about this situation too. I don't know if Grossman has climbed Reanimator, but that makes this all the more applicable since he chose to give Ammon sh#t about a route HE HAS NOT CLIMBED, he for sure wouldn't mind giving us sh#t if I had placed that bolt.
Stevie --> unless you have climbed the route in question, you have NO SAY in what happens on that route.
Thanks to the previous poster for pointing out to me what we already knew by looking in the back of the guidebook before doing the route, and for not getting the attempt at humor.
The reason we bailed and did not place the bolt was very much in-part based on the fact that Kohl is still actively climbing. I hold the style of the first ascent in high regard and if he didn't place a bolt there, "we ain't shit" and didn't think we should be adding bolts to his route (and I don't think bat hooks holes are a legit form of climbing). Sure we may have been ill-prepared as Russ pointed out (and I partly agree) but in my opinion, once you drill a hole, use whatever is the safest form of modern protection to fill it with (i.e. a 3/8" bolt). Anything else is over-inflation of the difficulty.
Paul
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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"but I figured since Grossman chose to call out Ammon on HIS ethical purity for nailing a blade on a nailing route in Zion instead of going for the magical blind nut placement around a corner that was only discovered recently on the first clean ascent, he would probably have something to say about this situation too."
I got it, dude... That's why I said, "he'd probably only say "Sack up!"
After telling Ammon to "Sack up", well, then, what else can you say to anyone else?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I think it is repectable that you bailed instead of altering the route.
at the same time I think if it's obvoius natural features actively depart from the wall after the FA then it's ok to add a rivet or bathook to the climb to make it go, as a last resort. if there is nothing to hook, then likely the FA would have placed something, right?
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Mimi
climber
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Echo what Russ said, but if it was only two raps to the ground, why didn't you get the necessary gear and go back up there? You could've easily hit the cybercafe and contacted Klaus for permission if you deemed that necessary.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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I have not done the route but a good friend of mine soloed it a couple of seasons ago and it sounds like a pretty wild outing by his account. Regarding your predicament, if the feature in question is gone, leaving nothing usable, the slate is blank as far as I'm concerned. A drilled placement of some sort is in order to allow the route to be climbable.
Replacing a blown placement with a 5/16 x 3/4" stainless machinehead is really the best option to restore the climbability of the route and not diminish the comittment. Machineheads, if properly placed, have reasonable service life but generally cannot be relied upon to hold lengthy falls due to rivet hanger cable failure.
Beyond that, the question of whether the hole is half empty or half full resides as always with the individual climber. An argument can be made that a drilled hook hole would more closely resemble the missing placement. My personal ethic says you fill what you drill and don't enhance, so I would opt for a rivet. Every situation is different and the important thing is to make a good decision.
You guys weren't set up for rivet replacement and didn't feel good about tossing in a big hole or even bigger piece of steel in the middle of a proud route. No regrets, the route will be there.
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Pierre
Big Wall climber
Sweden
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I remember that fifth pitch, the hooking section that is marked "A3+ hooks" in the book was slightly loose when we did the route in 2003 (it was not loose in -02, the first time I climbed that particular pitch).
It is possible to hook right, maybe five feet or so, and then travers back left to the rivets, I did that because I didn't see the first rivet until I was high and way to the right of it.
I thought the hooking on this pitch was as hard as anything I have done on El Cap (ZM and such)
If there is NO other way to get thru, I would have drilled a BAT hole and then other parties that will follow can easily place a rivet in that hole if it wears out.
This route felt to me way harder than what the grade in the book suggests, way way way harder than anything on routes like Zod and TT and Mescal and Shield for an example.
Thank God you didn't place that big fat bolt right in the middle of that pitch!
peace
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 7, 2006 - 10:40am PT
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Well it seems like we made the right decision.
Mimi, it was 2 raps to the ledge on 1, but another rope to the ground down some 120 feet of 5.8. We only had 2 ropes and 100' of lowerout rope. Yeah, we could have made it, but we later found out the MS doesn't even carry rivets.
The quality of the responses on here really suprised me. I appreciate all of you taking the time to write about this and help us get in a mindset for future routes. Are rivets just simply short bolts (nut and bolt kind) from the hardware store? Sketch. I think we'll get a few, but beef up the bolt bag with some 1/4" bolts.
Thank you Klaus for chiming in. And no offense taken, we are decent climbers, but are in no way the caliber of some of you guys and gals on here. We just sit on our asses and study a lot then get on fun sh#t when we can.
I wish all of you a happy winter season. Thanks Mike for the rec about the fifi on the cheater stick. A good suggestion!!! We'd be finished with the route (with a **cheater stick noted in the mental route log) if we had done that.
But Kohl, you put up a great route, and we just didn't wanna f*#k it up. That 4th pitch is some insane sh#t climbing that loose "V" of rock that is about to come out!!!
Ohh well, we had fun, and we'll be back with the proper abilities. Maybe this winter.
Respectfully to all,
Paul
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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"What would Walt do?"
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Mimi
climber
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Deuce, you KNOW what Walt would do.
Once the modulation got to the proper frequency, he'd hunker down in his slings, strap a ring angle onto his hammer, and launch with a howling aid double clutch to wherever the next placement was last reported to be seen. Once a beserker, always a beserker. LOL! One thing's for sure, he wouldn't have stood around too long pondering. We miss you Walt.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Replacing a blown placement with a 5/16 x 3/4" stainless machinehead is really the best option to restore the climbability of the route and not diminish the comittment. Machineheads, if properly placed, have reasonable service life but generally cannot be relied upon to hold lengthy falls due to rivet hanger cable failure.
Why is this is a better option than a 1/4" rawl buttonhead (split shaft)? Seems like for the long term viability of the placement the rawl would be much easier to remove and replace in the same hole if needed. Too bomber?
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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That's right Mimi, then best of all, there would be outrageously excellent entertainment at the Deli when Walt would relive the moment in all its passion and glory!
Sure do miss that man's energy.
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Mimi
climber
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Right on!
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