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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 27, 2016 - 08:58pm PT
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Edit: Just to get it out of the way early on, no this is not a reaction to BURCHEY or the other fine cast of comedians we have here:)
I'm trying to be serious as will quickly be apparent, and I hope that this can be of help to someone.
Wow... May of this year will mark the 20th anniversary of when such a person came into my life. Years marked by marriage, kids, separation as my ultimatum to her demanding change, my acquiescent return with no resultant changes, separation for real and a horrendous divorce process, and isolated parallel parenting when co-parent basically doesn't work. In the course of all that, I've had to learn to cope with her lying, alienation of my extended family, infidelity (that I actually didn't know about until earlier this year), stealing, abduction and child endangerment, false 911 calls against me, and a proxy-war through the kids that affected our custody battle, led to a Child Protective Services case against me that I didn't know about until they called me after they cleared me... I've only seen people like her in movies or books, never in real life. But I guess they are all around us, you just don't know it until you are close enough to peak behind the veil.
Here is is:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I am in large part motivated by looking for empathy and support, and trying to create a little corner of the taco as a survivors support group.
Where this sh!t can get so messy is where you have someone who is not just a dumb robot with heavy-handed obvious signs of non-normal behavior... where you have a very smart person who is a GREAT actor and emotional observer, who can emulate to a remarkable degree a range of emotions that mimic normal emotions of attachment, and yet... sometimes the chinks in the armor show through. In my case, the gloves really came off in the divorce process and I saw how ugly it could get. In some ways I knew that would happen during the marriage, and I remember about 6 years before the actual divorce wanting to get divorced but being afraid of that outcome.
My life is pretty together at this point: I'm very happily remarried, been together almost 8 years, and it is night and day difference. On some level I mourn the loss of earlier years, loss of my innocence, and so much emotional agony, but on another level I know I had enough demons that on some subconscious level I needed to recreate a hellish present like that to make it seem less scary to confront my childhood issues. That process enabled me to be the man equal to the healthy relationship I now have. If I had met my present wife when I was 20 years old, maybe we would have melted down? Pretty good likelihood. We are both remarkably stubborn and yet we live in loving harmony, knowing when to give and take and what things matter and what things don't, and we have enough in common that I don't feel like I have to compromise all the time. All in all I'm happy with who I am today, always room for improvement, but I'll always be burdened with knowing the life-long consequences for my kids of me not figuring this stuff out sooner.
Folks: if you have any shadow of a doubt that issues like these plague your relationship, KIDS WILL NOT FIX IT! I think of kids as an amplifier for whatever is already going on in your relationship. If its great, it will make it better. If things suck, kids will make it worse.
Anyways. Lately I've been decompressing another layer of this stuff bottled up inside, and just find it vindicating and validating to find youtube links talking about these kinds of people, describing symptoms where I say "yes that is it!" For years I knew something was very wrong, accepted much of the blame as my own that I was this terribly damaged person (which ultimately did help me deal with my own stuff and grow into the person I wanted to be), but I could just never articulate what was really so off about my ex. The first time I felt some external validation of this personality type I was living with, was when I read East of Eden by John Steinbeck. I remember those moments of dawning recognition so clearly. Over the years, I felt so alone and isolated because to everyone we knew on a more superficial level, all they could see was this perfect mask, which I continually observed in a horrified way how she could take that mask on and off and become someone else. And I was afraid to break the silence, because I had been trained so well by her to not share "dirty laundry" with outsiders... even my own family. This was a cardinal rule in her life through which she could keep various relationship triangles intact, and keep me from finding external support for the b.s. that was happening. And I totally bought into it for years and years.
So I'm hoping this thread can be more like a feel-good Oprah thread that spreads light to people, rather than a Jerry Springer-esque freakfest of feeding off the suffering of others. But it's the taco, and my brain is not so riddled with landmines as it once was, and I welcome whatever ways people choose to engage with the material.
P.S. If you yourself are a narcissist, there is hope for you too. A clue in the right direction: look deeply into that place you are afraid to look inside yourself. Stop running from introspection, what made you adopt your life strategies, and free yourself from the innumerable life distractions that help you avoid dealing with stuff. Defuse the emotional energy from those incidents or circumstances, which fuel the fight/flight responses that you express as your natural gifts for manipulating people. Learn to accept the cosmic joke that led you on the path you followed that helped you survive in your life circumstances, forgive yourself, and love yourself for real- not in the self-deluding arrogant superficial way you normally do to look good in front of others. When you learn to love yourself, you can risk being hurt by another person, because you can comfort yourself and you are not in mortal danger anymore. Then you can be vulnerable to another person, facade cast aside. Maybe you will be hurt, and that's ok. Try again, and you will learn better what is the right type of person for you.
p.p.s. If you are in a relationship with a narcissist, don't fall for their b.s. of trying to get better!!!! Info like this and what is on the net can be used for them to deal with their own issues, or to build even more perfect masks to fool everyone including you. So good for them if they want to get better, but don't yourself be sucked into the trap of trying to help them. It may be a very powerful suction, pulling at your primal hard-wired instincts, but it is a black hole that will crush you. Get away.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 09:02pm PT
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;) Well, I'm not a serial deleter so it will be there when you get bored, curious, or feel ready. And if it ain't relevant, well it's just some bits in the cloud that won't be offended if you don't read them. I won't be offended either.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:17pm PT
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The "cluster B" personality disorders are notorious:
-Antisocial personality disorder
-Narcissistic personality disorder
-Borderline personality disorder
They are all closely related and share the same traits: a lack or morality, lack of conscience, lack of empathy, and an overpowering sense of entitlement. These people will lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, blame, and do whatever it takes to get benefit for themselves.
These people will destroy you, if you let them in. They are so manipulative that you will find yourself questioning your own self worth, and they will make you feel that everything is your fault, and everything that you do is wrong.
Often these people are intelligent and highly functional, so they are extremely talented in, and well-practiced at, the manipulation game. The manipulation will start out insidiously. If you don't get out quickly, then you could find yourself mired in an abusive relationship in which you're always trying harder and harder to earn their forgiveness, trying to "give" more and more to redeem your self worth. But you'll never be successful because the sociopath keeps moving the goal line.
Narcissists in particular are often very popular and love attention, so it is easy to be drawn into their web. But they leave in their wake many turbulent and destroyed relationships. Others may start dropping hints that "She's nothing but trouble," but you ask yourself: How could such a smart, hot, popular babe be "trouble?"
Listen to the little angel on your shoulder when it starts waving red flags. And then run away as fast as you can!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
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A friend of a friend is currently working to unmarry a sociopath. Some people, and the ones they ensnare.
Absolutely terrifying stuff. TDFBS (thank dog for bearspray)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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Thank you for posting
And blessings to you. It awful that this curse is real and that you are entwined.
I have to work through all of it but I know it will have relevance . .
From one of the most letterd park ave NewYork City psychiatric specialist in the field.
No cure , grows worse with age a likely hood of multiple personality disorder made
exponentially worse by alcohol consumption ,
actively look to traumatize children to assert power through others realizing that it is better for the child drama / trama - wise - to leave be,
Obvious abuse, lest it escalate to more severe physical Bad acts against the defenseless
...
It is a vicious thing that is hard to see as a sickness. . .
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
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Read recently that one main way to identify sociopaths is through self-reporting. They don't see it as a problem, rather as a strength.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 09:44pm PT
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Unintelligent or very inexperienced people of the type maybe will own up to it.
But using my ex as an example- she almost never leaked to people outside her inner circle. There was one time where she screwed up and outed herself in court ordered co-parent counseling, claiming with authority that when I left her, I left the kids too. When she saw the look on the counselor's face and counselor's disagreement with that statement, she quickly backtracked and changed the story until the expression on the counselor's face was more relaxed. So just asking is NOT a sufficient indicator.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:55pm PT
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Don't caps me mister wordy wordyson. As your link points out "you spot it, you got it"
Lecture someone else, I had a wife.
What are your qualifications beyond YouTube and a shitty life choice/ wife choice.
(I could wink now but what I'm doing there is a little stress testing of you, our author and educator )
Are you hot or are you laughing?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:57pm PT
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Moose, how are you holding up? I know that you're facing some real stuff but not really sure what's appropriate to ask or say. With all respect, I've grown very fond of your persona here and wish you the very best.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 09:59pm PT
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And Brennan and Nut are two of the most moderated voices as well. I should go:)
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
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10:00 Taps at the Presidio of Monterey. Melancholy but nice.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:09pm PT
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Hey Flip Flop, your observations are real: "you spot it, you got it"
I keep asking myself this, and certainly have shades of it with my attitude toward time, and not being sufficiently respectful of it for others (which sycorax just helped me realize more deeply).
For me to go into a relationship with such a person and get married after obvious early warning signs, I was obviously predisposed to the type and that would be my mom. And my personal negative issues that I've worked through so far are a mix of copying or rebelling against various issues my parents had. It would make logical sense that these sorts of issues are lurking in me as the next layer of the onion to peel back.
I can see the connection with some issues that affect my attitude toward my career. As an employee or worker, I still think of myself as the person I was 15-20 years ago at work, but that probably blinds me to how much I have changed in that time. Probably for the better in my personal relationships, but for the worse in some of my work relationships- or a mix. Being able to handle confrontations can be a double-edged sword.
Edit: Jim Brennan, absolutely I was a part of it during the marriage. I stayed because I immaturely decided after a previous breakup that "any two people can make it work if they commit to each other." I was rebelling against my parent's divorce. And wrongly extrapolating lessons learned from a prior circumstance in my life. My ex stayed because of her culture that did not permit divorce, following the example of her own parents that stayed together in utter misery. Our relationship was so volatile because we had very different methods of giving and receiving love and feeling safe. I had a hard-wired shut-down/flight response to confrontation (couldn't even tell a waiter when my food order was wrong and something I couldn't eat), and my ex had a hard-wired chasing/fight response to being abandoned. Oil and water, or maybe water and lithium. All that dynamic is somewhat tangential to the narcissism topic here. But these circumstances did inflame the self-protective behaviors in my ex to have more pronounced expression of her traits. But there were huge clear examples before and after me.
So yes I was not purely a victim of this horrible monster... we both felt very wronged by the end of the marriage, but we both had very different senses of entitlement or what would constitute fairness. As for the divorce, that part is where the monster came out full force. At that point I could have just walked away to avoid further complications, but I would have had to give up 100% my connection with my kids to do that. I did eat it on the money stuff to be done with it, but kids are a different story.
Ironically, my divorce helped me understand the pressures my dad went through and why he was not a greater part of my childhood. Many times I wondered whether it would be better for my kids for them to just grow up hating me or not knowing me and having an ambivalent relationship toward me, but have a more stable life overall. I didn't choose that, but my dad did. I have had a renaissance in my relationship with him in the last few years. Kind of funny how life works out.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
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Interesting stuff. People are nuts. It's a spectrum of traits and behaviors that we all enjoy. I'm very interested in plasticity or changeability in mental health. Probably because I went through a shitty child custody battle and have met the new darker me. On one hand, the love for my son has given me limitless unconditional love and infinite patience. On the other, I am now extremely protective of him only. And ,as for that infinite patience, there's a scariness to the dark side of that. Paradoxes and duality everywhere. I have my lighthouse though. I'm a pacifist and I will not do anything in life that might cause suffering or lead to more separation from the little dude.
The takeaway for you might be this saying that I remind myself of often " I'm not in the business of hating my kids mother."
We should be friends. Our kids would get along.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:35pm PT
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"p.p.s. If you are in a relationship with a narcissist, don't fall for their b.s. of trying to get better!!!! Info like this and what is on the net can be used for them to deal with their own issues, or to build even more perfect masks to fool everyone including you. So good for them if they want to get better, but don't yourself be sucked into the trap of trying to help them. It may be a very powerful suction, pulling at your primal hard-wired instincts, but it is a black hole that will crush you. Get away."
"Narcissists in particular are often very popular and love attention, so it is easy to be drawn into their web. But they leave in their wake many turbulent and destroyed relationships. Others may start dropping hints that "She's nothing but trouble," but you ask yourself: How could such a smart, hot, popular babe be "trouble?"
Listen to the little angel on your shoulder when it starts waving red flags. And then run away as fast as you can!"
The seduction is incredibly seductive. If you have the option, go no contact. It's the only option.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
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You can let go between powder turns a little. Otherwise, Rage buddy, Rage.
And when I say 'fond' I mean I Love You Man.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:43pm PT
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I'm quite curious about the nature/nurture conditions that spawn Narcissism Personality Disorders. Sources, anyone?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 10:55pm PT
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Apogee,
I am way out of my depth when it comes to pop psychology but what-the-heck. It occurs to me that sociopathy could be a viable adaptation to messed up society. I'm thinking of how young women had to develop winning tactics against unreasonable odds. Seems to make sense that some might resort to manipulation and extreme self-preservation. Just thinking out loud.
It was either Krishnamurti, one of the Buddhas or Dick Van Patten who said " It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
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I remind myself of often " I'm not in the business of hating my kids mother."
This has been a challenge for me over the years. By the time I decided to leave, I had no hatred. Rather it was a bursting sense of compassion and relief and an attempt to save our own possibilities for leading happy lives. For me, I could have sat down with her and cried for our tragedy and hugged it out and gone our separate ways peacefully. That morphed over the course of the divorce... I kept forgiving, letting down my guard, normalizing relations, only to get screwed over and over again. I kept opening myself in ways that are healthy and normal in normal relationships, but they exposed me to tricks that worked against me having access to my kids. So for years I have had to consciously keep my guard up, which is exhausting when my nature has been to just let it go and try to be normal.
At this point I've managed to create enough distance, minimize interaction as much as possible, learned the hard way what issues that seem simple and obvious but won't get resolved in court, and I just let it all go. It's actually a problem sometimes because I need to consciously hold on to the energy of the past grievances to keep up my guard against present threats. Sometimes my present wife gets frustrated when I feel hurt or get burned by the same sorts of things over and over again, rooted in me being overly optimistic or thinking that things are different now.
So it's a weird balance for me: to keep myself protected, to protect my access to our kids, holding on to enough memories to be able to do that, but not hold on to the emotions of it, the resentments and sense of injustices that eat at me. I can mostly deal with this stuff in a matter-of-fact way now, coldly dissecting the behaviors and circumstances to better understand and recognize it... talking about it helps me keep it present without the emotions of it, so I can do what I must in fending off stuff from my ex and keep myself on an even keel, while also being open enough to take advantage of co-parenting opportunities when they arise.
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Jan 27, 2016 - 11:04pm PT
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Sound like solid parenting Nut. If we can't handle our kids mom then how will we teach them to handle her.
I was in the law library for a few hours today researching my options. You sure don't want my struggles.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
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I'm quite curious about the nature/nurture conditions that spawn Narcissism Personality Disorders. Sources, anyone?
Anecdotal:
 parents highly conflicted, the future Narcissist forced to be emotional caretaker for mother (i.e. comforting the mother while she was crying after parents fought)
Future Narcissist needed mothers love, so had to perform the role
Future Narcissist grew strong contempt for mother's weakness, vowed to herself to never let another person do that to her
Future Narcissist developed strong angry response to crying or weakness
Mother of future Narcissist fawned over her as if she were really a princess, indulging everything, not developing reasonable boundaries for children. Child was permitted to throw temper tantrums in crowded streets to get her way. Raised in an artificial bubble
Future Narcissist goes to college and enters the real world, is horribly traumatized by how "mean" people are (i.e. not indulging her as her mom did), and redoubles efforts to never let anyone get the upper hand of her
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