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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 10, 2006 - 02:38am PT
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I was searching the web for some old Chouinard Equipment advertisement and came across this exerpt from something Chouinard wrote about Patagonia, the company.
The quote from Antoine de Saint-Exupery which I have used as a cynosure for knowing when a task, a thought, a design is finished:
"In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away, when a body has been stripped down to its nakedness."
from Wind, Sand and Stars.
Interestingly, Chouinard explains the evolution of climbing tools (in this case, for ice climbing) to the point that he realizes "...that, with existing tools and techniques, a skilled climber could scale any given slope of snow or ice in the world."
His take in the end is that "We should start doing away with these tools and replace them with greater skill and courage. I felt that the whole idea of climbing should move away from goal-oriented technology to a place in which personal qualities like creativity, boldness, and technique were supported rather than suppressed by the tools of the trade."
He finds that he "lost the desire to make ever-more complex tools merely to make climbing safer and easier. I also had increasing difficulty relating to the new indoor sport climbers, who saw climbing as a strictly gymnastic endeavor in which mountains or crags were necessary and sticking one’s neck out was unacceptable. I began loathing the very equipment I was making, preferring to go out and do easier climbs without gear rather than harder ones with all the gear."
Those of us who grew up and climbed "back in the day" understand this sentiment. Adventure is about risk. Risk is the result of failing to be able to determine the outcome of an action completely. The contemporary feeling regarding risk is that it should be eliminated entirely.
But with it goes adventure.
The existence of adventure and risk are personally important to me in my life. Whether it be physical, as in climbing, or intellectual, as in pursuing knowledge at the frontier of understanding. I could not live in a world without adventure...
Maybe I have an antiquated view.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 10, 2006 - 03:25am PT
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pssshhhh...whatever.
and so how is Patagonia Clothing company any different then the extra gear he is bitching about?
I'm sick of hearing how "soft" our generation is. STFU and climb dood.
I'm gunna bitch slap the next old ass wannabe hardman that says there is not adventure left in climbing...
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:06am PT
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Thanks for that, Ed.
If your view is antiquated, I guess mine is as well.
SS
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:34am PT
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Well said Ed.
The art of placing passive & active protection...
Due to the ongoing debate of SCLD's & passive protection a photo essay seems appropriate to defend the versatility of passive protection.
Much love and convenience can be sprayed upon cams yet once you've mastered a placement and stuffed your hexcentric & nutz in a bomber crack you should be happy with any assent.
Since I'm lit & it's raining at 2am you might have to wait for the photos.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 10, 2006 - 09:30am PT
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Thanks Ed for posting something thought provoking, a rarity on ST lately.
Time to dust off my favorite Doug Robinson quotes. Doug was a significant ghost writer for Chouinards' Climbing Ice
"Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite directions, one forcing passage while the other discovers it.
The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment."
and
"We are Homo Sapiens, the tool users. We earn the name by developing tools to increase our leverage on the world around us, and with our increased technological leverage comes a growing sense of power. This position of advantage which protects us from wild nature we call civilization.
Our security increases as we apply more leverage, but along with it we notice a growing isolation from the earth. We crowd into cities which shut out the rhythms of the planet – daybreak, high tide, wispy cirrus high overhead yelling storm tomorrow, moonrise, Orion going south for the winter. Perceptions dull and we come to accept a blunting of feeling in the shadow of security. Drunk with power, I find that I am out of my senses. I, tool man, long for immediacy of contact to brighten my senses again, to bring me nearer the world once again; in my security I have forgotten how to dance.
So, in reaction, we set sail on the wide without motors in hopes of feeling the wind; we leave the land rover behind as we seek the desert to know the sun, searching for a remembered bright world. Paddling out again, we turn to ride the shorebreak landward, walking on waves, the smell of wildflowers meeting us on the offshore breeze. In the process we find not what our tools can do for us but what we are capable of feeling without them, of knowing directly. We learn how far our unaided effort can take us into the improbable world. Choosing to play that game in the vertical dimension of what is left of wild nature makes us climbers. Only from the extreme of comfort and leisure do we return willingly to adversity. Climbing is a symptom of post-industrial man."
From "A Night on the Ground, A day in the Open" Doug Robinson
My best adventures were directly inspired by this philosophy.
Peter
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2006 - 09:31am PT
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Hi Ed,
I think that there is a logic step missing to move from Yvon's sense that more equipment reduced his enjoyment to the sense the better equipment reduces adventure. In my reckoning, Yvon believed that in ice climbing improved equipment would take all the fun out it. The same could be said for aid climbing, which also relies on equipment to make any progress. In free climbing, Yvon equates sport climbing with the same affect as better equipment. His solution was "…to go out and do easier climbs without gear rather than harder ones with all the gear."
That's fair enough. So did John Bachar.
But I don't think that the adventure is solely a function of equipment, which can be balanced by difficulty (as Yvon points out): climbers have increased the difficulty to maintain the adventure. Yvon did. Look at the rurp.
I think that Yvon has mistaken adventure and the enjoyment of climbing. I think that that is just a personal point of view. Does anyone remember when Yosemite's short crack climbs were considered 'practice climbs?' Or the AAC barely mentioning Yosemite climbing because it was not true mountaineering. Or, personally, my friends refusing to climb with me because of my desire to push my free climbing standards--it took the adventure out of climbing for them. It all seems pretty strange now.
It is also difficult to make blanket statements about safety. What does it mean when a helmeted climber, using all the latest tools, self-belays the beginning of the next pitch with 80 feet of rope. Or, someone hooking 50 feet above his last good piece. Safety is very relative in climbing and its definition is completely dependent on the level of skill and attitude of the climber. Weekenders and club climbers were as obsessed with safety in Yvon's day as they are today. So were Yvon and his cohorts in their own rarified world of hard aid and (at least in the case of Robbins and Pratt) free climbs.
If Yvon were a young man now, he might not be participating in the new, all free ascents of El Cap and instead prefer to climb in the wilds-- absent good bars, girls, and showers (a decided reduction in adventure for some). To each his own. But in my view the hard climbers of today are no different in outlook than the hard climbers of any other generation.
Now sport climbers....
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Oct 10, 2006 - 09:37am PT
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Givin' a big shout out to my bro's in the crusty old dad club!
Tech inovation is a natural progression, and nobody is saying don't use it. But don't think you aren't benefiting from it, and having an easier time than those that have gone before without it.
As for the adventure factor, it is what you make out of it. Someone landed a helo on the summit of Everest, so if you still climb mountains it is either because you are poor, or you see some value in challenging yourself with less than all available means. How much fun are video games when you use the invincibility cheat codes?
And any sermon about adventure from a guy that runs an indoor gym, well, yeah, hmmm. I am making an effort to be a nicer person, so I'm not even going to finish that thought.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 10, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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Speaking of this, ever read Jardine's minimalist bachpacking book?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:09am PT
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Huhmmmmmmmmmnnn ...... interesting
Risk? What does one gain by going there ultimately? If this so called contemporary generation finds that risk is becoming unacceptable then what is this generation tying to protect?
Maybe this contemporary generation has become more nihilistic in it's consciousness?
And: Our good friend Lambone brings up a good point.
"and so how is Patagonia Clothing company any different then the extra gear he is bitching about?"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:14am PT
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"Ironic the tool maker grew bored with his own tools."
This means he became frustrated and did not find what he was ultimately seeking?
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Can one be a minimalist, if he read the book?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:21am PT
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Will all due respect to Lambone, I don't think his comment "and so how is Patagonia Clothing company any different then the extra gear he is bitching about?" means anything.
Chouinard made his decision to stop designing gear to make ice climbing easier. Eventually he sold all of his hardware business.
His clothing company is just that, clothing. As most everyone agrees it is not much related to climbing equipment. Anymore than Tompkins' getting out of the climbing equipment business and starting 'Esprit' with his wife. Or, Robbins getting out of carabineers and boots and making 'Liz wear' (or what ever they called it.)
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Hootervillian
climber
the Hooterville World-Guardian
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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The contemporary feeling regarding risk is that it should be eliminated entirely.
that's a little hard to back up. would be dismissing a lot that has gone down lately.
but in the spirit of his message (i think), i ditched all my patagucci wear 10 minutes after that 'all new climbers suck' diatribe that was published in the mags a few years back.
i felt bolder right away.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:25am PT
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Roger
Are you sure?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:29am PT
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Sure of what, Werner?
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:31am PT
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About everything you said in your last post.
__
And edit: Anyone remember Rick Reider's John Muir trail hike with Lutricia (sp). They were the most minimalistic in their approach.
Taking only natrul fibers for protection and no sleeping bags just wool blankets, no stoves, eating some natural foods along the way, and various other details I have forgotten. Now where TF is Reider, hahaha?
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:43am PT
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Adventure is about risk. Risk is the result of failing to be able to determine the outcome of an action completely. The contemporary feeling regarding risk is that it should be eliminated entirely.
But with it goes adventure.
Everybody picks his spot on the spectrum. Some solo. Some folks TR, even though they are allergic to bees. Some watch, even though there may be rockfall.
Most drive there.
I would bet that if you were able to measure the "perception of climbers" when they are climbing at their risk limits, you might find little differences, i.e, that their physiological responses might correlate poorly with the physical location and conditions, but correlate strongly with each other.
What might vary is how much time each climber climbs in various parts of his risk profile. That would be an interesting study.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:47am PT
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Peter, great Doug quotes; Thx.
"We all sat down and feasted through kilos of of bisteak, fried plantains, ensalada aguacate, crunchy sheets of casabe, quarts of jugo de tamarindo and various colorful sweet tubers whose names I could never get my toungue around; and I slowly reentered the emphatic world of a people which, candid and open as the savannah, lived like everybody would if they could stop worrying about life and start living it." -- Largo
Indeed, stop worrying about life and start living it--it's not as easy as it sounds.
We (well, I do at least) climb to feel alive, to feel the blood pumping through me, to live in the here and now. As my skills progress, I find I take less and less gear. Perhaps one day, like Hot Henry, I'll ditch the active pro for the clean feeling of climbing with passive pro; whatever, it's for my own personal satisfaction.
As long as punks don't go and bring our climbs down to their level, each should do as they please. But I see the progression from TR'ed gym climbs to the feeling that safety should follow where ever the NewG go. On Power Dome, an elegant, spectacular face, protected by tri-cams now sports bolts, all you need are draws. Detailed maps of climbs, taking all the guesswork out of a pitch. Head-pointing moderates ...
I say that if it allows us to stop worrying about life and start living it, go for it. Too many of us are sleep walking as it is.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2006 - 11:56am PT
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Yes. It is my opinion, but I am sure about it.
Are you and Lambone arguing that because the climbing clothing is better, the climbing is easier and the adventure is gone? Sort of like saying that only naked climbers without water bottles are the true participants in adventure?
I'll grant that as long as it is in the same category as Yvon made so much money in making clothes that he could afford to go on really grand adventures, thereby reducing the adventure. For sure any dirtbagger would agree with that. But I don’t think it has much meaning relative to Yvon’s decisions about designing gear. I don't think there is much overlap in clothing making ice climbing easier and Yvon's ice climbing tools making ice climbing easier.
I have always disagreed with Chouinard's sense that the adventure is gone in climbing—which he started writing about in about 1967.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Oct 10, 2006 - 12:00pm PT
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In all seriousness, I've tried now and then to get someone to do a route using only stones for pro like the crusty old Scots used to do. Hmmm, haven't had much success yet. You should see the look on the faces of some when I insist on using a jammed rock for a rap anchor or when I use a body belay; I see the incipient stage of a nervous breakdown.
There is too much elaborate and unneccessary equipment today as well as too much emphasis on safety. We should keep in mind how well "Oldschool" was quite successful with far less.
When I instruct, I teach all the old ways: Dolfer Sitz, carabiner raps, use of stones, slingknot raps, swamis etc. Mind you, this doesn't mean a rejection of improved or more efficient gear; but thinking carefully about what is truly necessary and not just excess weight should be the goal. So, right on Ed.
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