Emulating Dangerous Sports - True or False

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Original Post - May 20, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
Per the recent BASE jumping deaths in Yosemite Valley, one paper wrote:

"Clif Bar’s decision (to withdraw sponsorship from Potter, Honnold, etc.) was a controversial one that came under heavy critique by the climbing community, who noted that Potter and the other dropped athletes were some of the most incredible and innovative athletes on the planet, the people who take sports to new places and offer a glimpse into what is possible. Others expressed support for the idea that a company shouldn’t be promoting activities – especially in an age of YouTube and viral videos, where young people might seek to emulate and copy the stunts they see their heroes doing – and which have such a high risk of death."

The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.

For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.

What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.

JL
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
May 20, 2015 - 08:36pm PT
In the center of New Jersey is a Cliff that has a history.
It is called Watchung. It is a short wall of vertical "trapp Rock" over the last forty years at least six young people have fallen off ,needing rescue . They were all trying to "climb" a term the news media pointedly use broadly.
I know of two specific climbers who were emulating the mags when they blew off the5.7 corner.

The repetitive rescue calls have closed a cliff that has seen decades of great climbers.
From Bill Shockley to to Lynn Hill.

As with so many climbing areas in dense population centers
Mass marketing reaches the inebriated - what often happens when non climbers see climbing
And then are hanging out,and see bouldering they think and take any chance to showboat, copy, emulate the parlor trick that shirtless guy just did on that rock . The results vary but the stories in house in rescue squads would make good fodder for the Largo treatment .

We were about ten years younger than a wild bunch of stoners who's antics were more driven, more youthful ,our thing than the 20yr older,Dave craft and the other Vulgarians ruling the Gunks .

Both groups were legendary for group cordless ascents. The bad habit continues today.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 20, 2015 - 08:37pm PT
Undoubtedly some have been inspired to become Climbers, Wingsuiters and such from video's they have seen.

Films and books certainly influenced my skiing.

I became a wallclimber due to one film. ElCapitan. Dunno if I would have without it.

Had I been killed one could I suppose blame those guys..

But that would have been wrong. I made my choices after a lot of learning and skill building, yes inspired by that film but carefully built skills step by step... it worked out.. sometimes it doesn't for others.


I doubt anyone is out there wingsuiting without proper training. Once that occurs and perhaps even without it they become responsible for their decisions.

I suppose maybe freesoloing might possibly have a direct connection.. it's something rescue groups have to pull even tourists off cliffs for doing. It takes no training or experience at all to get in over you head freesoloing.. kids do it every day in trees.

But I sure don't have any direct examples of someone who went out to do it and got hurt directly due to a video they watched.

Suspect it has happened though.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
May 20, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
Quantifying the number, if any, of people emulating Honnold, Potter et al would be a nearly impossible task. Someone would have to say...."I'm going out to do just what so and so did."

I'm not saying that I think people do or don't emulate extreme sport legends....I'm just saying establishing a metric would be extremely difficult.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 20, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
The implied message here is that Cliff Bar feared that unwitting people, or at any rate, folks not up to the challenge, might look at what Potter and Honnold et al are doing (or were doing) and would be encouraged to try it themselves and die terribly in the process.

Unlikely that Clif Bar's execs had this "fear"; much more likely were worried that Clif Bar athletes (or individuals aspiring to be sponsored by Clif Bar) would shuffle off this mortal coil pursuing their chosen art/sport/whatever.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 08:50pm PT
Noobs will always do crazy stuff. They have forever and long befor videos were out there.

If Cliff Bar and others would say, We can't with a clear conscience keep feeding money to people involved in sports so risky that the top doods keep getting killed (re: BASE, etc) - I would agree with this.

But that is a different angle than suggesting that fatal accidents in BASE, free soloing and highlining have actually occurred by way of players duped/encouraged into their fatal acts through watching videos and so forth.

My feeling is that the former argument is valid and is the rightful choice of any business, while the later is a cheap scare tactic that has no empirical evidence to back it up. At all.

JL

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
It is not so much the existence of a causal connection between a novice killing himself because of what he saw on a candy bar wrapper. Rather it is the effect on the subconscious mind of the buying public when a corporate name is associated with the unfortunate demise of a sponsored athlete. Capitalism, it is all about the money. Sales are generated by warm fuzzy feelings. Because Black Diamond customers are climbers, BD probably worries less about this perception than a snack food company would.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
For this to be a viable theory there must be some evidence that somewhere, at some time - either in BASE, highlining or free soloing - people have tried to ape the feats of their heros and have died in the process.

What are the examples of this happening in the three disciplines just mentioned? I am not asking for a speculative argument, however well reasoned, but rather for concrete evidence to validate the notion that anyone has actually died trying to be someone they were not or from trying something they would not otherwise have tried without seeing the Honnold vids and so forth.

That would be Potter and Hunt, to choose the most recent example. They must have been inspired by someone doing something. They were both wrong, and played above their level of skill.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
Another way of looking at this... how many of these things would occur without any media at all? Would our sports exist in any way like they do without all the books and films that have been made about them?

What if no one but a few folks involved knew about the first climbs done in the alps? or actually no one knew anymore..since they have long since passed.. I'd guess we would still be trudging up mountains like they did 150 years ago.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
May 20, 2015 - 08:52pm PT
Well to me Graham comes to mind right off. Young groom following his hero. Of course by now - as I understand - he was an experienced pilot (is that the word?) But I would presume he was largely following in Dean's wake. And I'm not necessarily criticizing that - just commenting on the relationship.

Meanwhile I would look at Cliffbar's decision somewhat differently. Companies don't sponsor athletes for the athletes' benefit. Its strictly a cost/benefit analysis. How many more candy bars will we sell with Dean's photo in our add... vs how many fewer will we sell if he gets killed. From a business point of view I think they made the decision none to soon. Can you imagine the flack they would have gotten for promoting dangerous and deadly endeavors given recent tragic events.

One man's point of view.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
May 20, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
I believe their concern was not people emulating the high risks, but just that the sponsored athletes might die,
and the company could feel partly responsible (since they "endorsed and encouraged" the athletes' prior risky achievements).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/16/sports/clif-bar-drops-sponsorship-of-5-climbers-citing-risks-they-take.html
http://www.clifbar.com/text/a-letter-to-the-climbing-community
A Letter to the Climbing Community
Over the past few days, there’s been a heated dialogue about our recent decision to withdraw sponsorship of several climbers. We’ve watched, listened and been humbled by the conversation, and wanted to share with you where we are on this topic. Our hope is that we can provide clarity around our climbing sponsorships and to demonstrate our continued commitment to supporting this great sport and the climbing community.

Climbing has been a part of our company’s DNA from the beginning. Over a year ago, we started having conversations internally about our concerns with B.A.S.E. jumping, highlining and free-soloing. We concluded that these forms of the sport are pushing boundaries and taking the element of risk to a place where we as a company are no longer willing to go. We understand that some climbers feel these forms of climbing are pushing the sport to new frontiers. But we no longer feel good about benefitting from the amount of risk certain athletes are taking in areas of the sport where there is no margin for error; where there is no safety net.

As such, going forward we will not be sponsoring climbers who are primarily recognized for free-soloing, B.A.S.E. jumping and highlining. This change in sponsorship approach did not come without great debate.

Ultimately, this decision came down to a sense of responsibility to our own story, what we endorse and the activities that we encourage – which is largely reflected in our sponsorship of athletes. This responsibility extends to adventurers of all types – climbers, outdoor enthusiasts, as well as children.

We have and always will support athletes in many adventure-based sports, including climbing. And inherent in the idea of adventure is risk. We appreciate that assessing risk is a very personal decision. This isn’t about drawing a line for the sport or limiting athletes from pursuing their passions. We’re drawing a line for ourselves. We understand that this is a grey area, but we felt a need to start somewhere and start now.

This is a new path for us and we haven’t been perfect in the way that we’ve communicated or executed the change in sponsorships. For that we’re sorry and take full responsibility. Climbing has been a big part of Clif Bar’s history and we remain as committed as ever to the sport that we love.

 The Clif Bar Team
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
May 20, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
John...what was it like being sponsored by Camel Tobacco company...?
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
May 20, 2015 - 08:55pm PT
If Cliff Bar and others would say, We can't with a clear conscience keep feeding money to people involved in sports so risky that the top doods keep getting killed (re: BASE, etc) - I could totally agree with this.

Clif Bar has said exactly that, virtually word for word, when they dropped their big-name climbers. At no point did they justify the drop in terms of impressionable Johnnie/Susie.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 08:57pm PT
Anyone believing that Dean Potter died because he watched other people's videos or that Graham was BASE jumping only because of Dean never met either one of those guys.

Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"

This was not Cliff Bars stated reason for dumping folks, but was more of a common refrain raised by all sorts of outfits, as quoted in the opening statement.

JL
Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
May 20, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
while the later is a cheap scare tactic that has no empirical evidence to back it up whatsoever.

Well stated, as is your eloquent and succinct original question.

There is practically no evidence of the monkey see, monkey do dynamic going on here. It takes so much time and dedication to achieve the levels currently being practiced by the elite athletes of these disciplines that very few from the "mainstream" population can even imagine starting on the road to such endeavors.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 20, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
Perhaps a better question is: How many of you out there have been duped or encouraged into doing dangerous shite that you never would have done otherwise save for trying to emulate your "heros?"

This is a rather bizarre argument for you to make, John. This was the entire culture of Yos in the early days.

How many hundreds of stories have been heard of Stonemasters dragging newbies up rock WAY beyond their skills, so as to have a belayer?

This is well described in "Beyond the Vertical" by Kor, who did it all the time.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - May 20, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
Again - noobs are going to do crazy sh#t - be they try to drive like NASCAR racers or free solo like Honnold. But the notion that say, a free soloer is setting a bad example for others, is quite possibly an untruth in terms of triggering accidents. And while saying you want to cut association with anyone who does "crazy stuff" for fear of encouraging other to do same, might be a "valid business decision," it might at the same time foster a myth - that people die in the adventure world trying to ape their heros.

I'm simply not convinced this is true, and would be interested to hear from those out there who have not died but perhaps have gotten into big jams by trying to be like Potter or Honnold or (fill in the blank).

And Ken, the Stonemasters were very influenced to try rad stuff and to yank others up rad stuff but that is different than trying do-or-die adventures. Those are the ones I am talking about. I am not suggesting that we have not all been encouraged by great performers to push our limits. Pushing the limits is a different animal than do or die.


As Kalimon just said: There is practically no evidence of the monkey see, monkey do dynamic going on here. It takes so much time and dedication to achieve the levels currently being practiced by the elite athletes of these disciplines that very few from the "mainstream" population can even imagine starting on the road to such endeavors.

To suggest that those in this elite level are there only by dint of peer pressure or through trying to ape their mentors seems unlikely to me and is nothing I have ever seen.


JL
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 20, 2015 - 09:11pm PT
I certainly banged myself up a couple times trying to be like Scot Schmidt. Fortunately not too badly. Hopped some pretty sweet cliffs though and still like to do it on a good day. Never would have gotten half as good without the inspiration.

rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
May 20, 2015 - 09:14pm PT
Perhaps Bridwell put it best: " standards will be pushed and slowly raised and those not honed to the fine edge will take the dreaded groundfall".
rwedgee

Ice climber
CA
May 20, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
Red Bull took the exact opposite stance as Clif and made an empire that dwarfs little Clif.
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