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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 27, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
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So, that was interesting...
The thread about ST management reading PM's just got erased. I am not sure what that means, but it is sad to see that ST management chooses to delete threads rather than respond to what is a relatively serious accusation.
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Port
Trad climber
Norwalk, CT
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:16pm PT
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That was.....weak.
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
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Did the guy who started it get wacked too?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
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:-(
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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Maybe but it may have been part of an elaborate disinformation campaign by the person who started that other thread--he may have deleted it himself in sort of a "false flag" operation.
If the ST admins are as nefarious as he would like us to believe, I highly doubt they would have "tipped him off" that they were reading his emails; instead, they would have continued to monitor his emails (to what sinister ends, who knows???)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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And beyond just deleting the first post, where the rest of it can be recovered like some other threads in the past, looks like every post in the thread was deleted directly from the database:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2517669
If I look at my history of posts, the post I made in that thread no longer shows up. An end user can't do that unless they fully hack the website enough to get admin permissions on the DB. Pretty unlikely.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 02:25pm PT
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I wonder how long this thread will remain.
BTW, it looks like all of khanom's post and any thread he started are now gone too. Dr F part 2.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:27pm PT
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Let's see...
Send emails using a service provided by someone else about starting a competing service
Get advised that you should stop
Start a thread about it
Get whacked
Wierd....
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Norton
Social climber
quitcherbellyachin
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:29pm PT
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what did Khanom do that was so wrong that he had his account deactivated?
I don't see how he violated any forum rules
he just pointed out that our Private Messages to each other are being monitored and posted that
was he "banned" because he should have known not post that?
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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what did Khanom do that was so wrong that he had his account deactivated?
I don't see how he violated any forum rules
I agree with you 100%. Then again, there really are no rules for posting at ST. Our use of this site is at the whim of "management," and management has no interest in justifying its actions to us. ST management has also shown itself to be very capricious and intolerant of any comments that paint them in a less than positive light.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 02:37pm PT
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Starting the countdown to deletion...
Five.
Four.
Three...
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:39pm PT
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Damn! I even did ctrl-c on his whole op, but then didn't save it anywhere, and did other ctrl's on top of it!
Maybe we can all get deleted forever!
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:42pm PT
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My Ctrl + C worked. Here ya go:
khanom
Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 27, 2014 - 11:56am PT
I feel I have a responsibility to my friends and fellow forum members to post this. I'm sorry it's long, but I need to be thorough.
During the recent discussion about the disappearing of Dr. F, several people said they felt they had to leave in part because of the lack of clarity in this forum's policies. A poster asked "but where would we go?" and I sent an email through this site using the member-to-member email function (aka "private messages) to reassure them it was possible and gauge their interest. I mentioned that I might bring it up publicly -- I didn't do that, and had decided against any mention of it here at least until it was set up. Even so: I don't think that would necessarily be "wrong", and it doesn't violate any written policies of this forum. There have been announcements of new climbing forums in the past and there was never any problem. Same with guidebooks. Yes it probably depends, but it didn't happen anyway.
Within about half an hour of sending the message I received an email from RJ Spurrier, who is the "senior editor" and "web developer" here:
It has recently come to our attention that you have been soliciting feedback from forum members on the concept of creating your own forum.
While you have every right to do whatever you'd like to on your own, we would ask you to respectfully please refrain from using the SuperTopo forum or our resources to recruit or promote for your own competing activities.
Again, I hadn't said a word about it in the public forum. I knew what had happened, but needed RJ to say it explicitly. He did. To my request for clarification he replied:
When we say, "the SuperTopo forum or our resources" we also include features we offer such as member to member messaging.
If you know anything about the technical side of email servers or forums you know that typically these communications are not encrypted. Anybody with the right "privileges" could read them. And the Terms of Service (ToS) say that they have the right to investigate, among other things, violations of the terms. So even though neither the ToS nor Supertopo's Privacy Policy say anything about reading your email, the legality of the action isn't something I want to focus on here. If you are interested there are legal implications and I would imagine that any lawyer would say that at the least Supertopo is legally vulnerable because of the nature of the email interface and the ambiguity of their written policies. That's for Chris to figure out.
To my mind there are three issues of immediate importance:
1. What is suspicion? What is cause for reading your messages? I never mentioned anything about starting a new forum publicly. The only thing I've done is criticize the management -- both for a lack of clarity in moderation policies and for a lack of respect toward the forum members. It wasn't even all that harsh. Others agreed or said similar things.
So what prompts management to read your member-to-member emails?
Any criticism of how the forum is run?
Would they read the emails of a suspected guidebook author?
A member suspected of encouraging participation in another forum? Apparently so.
Doesn't this seem a little incongruous for the "the most open home for discussion on the Internet"?
2. The reading of member-to-member communications is routine
There are some reasons to think this:
"Suspicion" seems to have an incredibly low threshold.
This is important: In the case of this forum, there is no reason to store the message. It's just a form to send an email to mask member's email addresses for "privacy". It might be queued for delivery but there is no reason to hang on to the message. That means that there has to be code in place to store the message and/or send it to an admin. And that means that it's not a one-off thing. Systems are in place to make reading of your "private" messages easier.
From a technical point of view it would be more efficient to store -all- messages sent through the system for some indefinite period of time. This is the only way you could search them for violations of your unwritten policies.
3. While we may not expect absolute privacy, I think we have a right to some trust
You can say there is no expectation of privacy here. I would qualify that: there is no expectation of absolute privacy. I don't imagine anybody is using the PM function to send highly privileged communications. But I think it's not unfair to expect that the administrators would have enough class to respect your privacy when communicating with other members of this forum.
As with the lack of a moderation policy, with no defined standards for the circumstances under which "private" messages may be read, one is inclined to conclude that all circumstances are fair game.
In every other forum I've been involved with the policy is either clearly stated "we can read your PMs" or "we will never do that". I make no judgement about which policy is "right". But in every case the expectations are fairly clear and users can act accordingly.
You are welcome to debate the legitimacy of my asking a member about their interest in a new forum. Note again that I specifically refrained from doing so in the public forum. I did not PM hundreds of members, only one. The discussion was moved to normal email immediately. This forum doesn't exist and the vague idea that arose was not intended to compete with this one. Can you call something competing when it doesn't exist yet?
Bottom line:
Know that "member-to-member" emails through this forum are routinely monitored by the "administrators". We don't know who can view them nor how long they are retained. This is not mentioned in the terms of service or privacy policy nor are there any stated guidelines as to what is considered appropriate content for member-to-member communications or grounds for administrators reading them. If there were, I obviously wouldn't be posting this topic.
I'm guessing this thread will be deleted and I will be banned. Obviously, it's trivial to keep re-posting this until I feel a sufficient number of people have been informed of this unwritten policy.
Chris and RJ: I warned you. I gave you several days to address this issue privately. In your arrogance you didn't even see the gaping hole you fell through. Deleting this topic would only further reinforce the points I'm trying to make. I don't expect you'll deign to engage the unwashed masses, but you could at least have enough class to keep pretending this is "the most open home for discussion on the Internet"
scrubbing bubbles
Social climber
Uranus
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
I can just picture Cmac laying on his portaledge, contemplating the next day's A4+ pitch....while also reading thru my emails
survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:02pm PT
Wow, this sounds super lame.
How many of our PM's are they reading?
I guess member to member, isn't really private.
These guys are often their own worst enemies.
Don't hold your breath for your thread to be around long!!
Censorship Rules!!!
bouldering88
climber
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:07pm PT
I had a username usurped by the site super secret admins, and used later by them to post.
It was a symbol.
Ever since then, no trust.
limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:08pm PT
You sure your friend didn't rat you out?
Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:14pm PT
my secrets they are better spent drifting
than they are harbored to my fears.
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
Oh MY!
Credit: Fritz
Dave Kos
Social climber
Temecula
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:15pm PT
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/27/california-highway-patrol-officers-accused-stealing-nude-photos-from-female/
Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:17pm PT
Thanks for the heads up Eric
Malemute
Ice climber
great white north
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:19pm PT
No time to moderate the as#@&%es, but time to read emails.
This lack of scruples is typical of corporate america.
steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:20pm PT
Bottom line:
Know that "member-to-member" emails through this forum are routinely monitored by the "administrators". We don't know who can view them nor how long they are retained. This is not mentioned in the terms of service or privacy policy nor are there any stated guidelines as to what is considered appropriate content for member-to-member communications or grounds for administrators reading them. If there were, I obviously wouldn't be posting this topic.
Sounds like Facebook.
Ron Anderson
Trad climber
Relic MilkEye and grandpoobah of HBRKRNH
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:24pm PT
Who cares? Not me. Im sure they got some laughs from mine IF that is the case. Or perhaps some one ratted you out eh..
"Zed,,, Maynard here- the spider done caught some flies"
How about some PROOF of your accusations.. Theory be set aside.
BJ
climber
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:25pm PT
Could the person(s) you PM'ed have ratted you out? And the forum had nothing to do with reading your PM's? It depends on the forum, in Washington, NWHikers has an absolutely low threshold of privacy. Tom will rat you out and spy on you out of vindictiveness.
I doubt that is the case here.
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
ST's 3 goals are total shite in my opinion...
2) Preserve history
A lot of Historical Gold has been posted here from Yosemite, Colorado, Alaska and around the world. I love the fact that a web search for old climbing history often directs the searcher to the SuperTopo Forum. Best of all, many of the people who made that history post here! Some people have asked if this historical stuff is safe here. Answer: Yes. We have been around since 2000 (the Stone Age in climbing Forum time) and are not going anywhere. We have a business model learned from living in Camp 4: even with low income, you can always keep your expenses even lower. (And grab leftover pizza from the Curry Deck when necessary).
What happens to the thread when they are stripped from the walls without a trace...
What about that history...
No worries... it no longer exists.
never mind, back to the discussion...
This one too...
3) Have the most open home for discussion on the Internet
For good or bad, SuperTopo is the least moderated, least categorized, least divided up forum out there. One page, simple layout, post em' if ya got em' That is what people love and hate about the Forum, myself included.
This one feels like it used to be true... at least kind of.
graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
Some people are upset that Dr. F. was banned. I am not. I'm surprised that he wasn't banned long time ago. Anyone could have seen it coming. Everyone else who was as "over the top" in such volume of political posts and personal attacks was banned long time ago.
Some people think the standards are too "arbitrary." Compared to sites that have lots of clearly defined rules and regulations, they are. The administrators generally let just about anything go until they decide something is just too much or too excessive. And so there is a higher degree of arbitrariness in their decisions, but that's inherent in the management model they are using. You may not always like the "calls" they make--and I don't always--but the end result is that the forum is much more open and permissive than it would be if they were lots of technical rules that were consistently applied to everyone. So I like it this way. If you want a forum with lots of rules that create predictability as to what will and will not be banned, there are other choices. You will probably decide that Supertopo is a better forum though.
If they are reading the private messages sent through the "Send email" function, I think they really should add a clear disclaimer right there: "Messages sent through this form may be read by site administrators." I hope someone just ratted khanom out. Sometimes, people you think are your friends aren't.
scrubbing bubbles
Social climber
Uranus
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:39pm PT
Once I sent a PM that in about 25 pages described in rich lascivious detail about 100 of my "sexual conquests" of some of the world's most passionate and beautiful women...
A few days later RJ, relating a bawdy tale of his own on this Forum, plagiarized whole passages of my scandalous PM, almost word for word...too lazy to come up with his own adjectives
That's when I began to lose all faith
snarky
climber
Hoisington
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:41pm PT
I guess that explains why I get periodic "Keep up the good work!" from the admins after forwarding a bunch of gay senior porn.
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
I don't expect absolute privacy for member-to-member messages. I wouldn't send anything I was afraid of having other folks find out. Honestly, the same goes for email unless it is strongly encrypted and directly sent to a destination server that the receiver physically controls (which is about 0.0001% of email users).
That said, it is definitely disturbing to think that a member-to-member message triggered a personal response from an admin, especially when the nature of that message was not crossing any lines that required law enforcement but was simply a matter of petty competition.
If this is the full story, it is way out of line of reasonable administrative activities. It doesn't seem illegal, just inappropriate.
Sketch
Trad climber
Not FortMental
Oct 27, 2014 - 12:42pm PT
khanom
Trad climber
Greeley Hill
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 12:43pm PT
I have been hoping to be wrong. I was hoping that somehow I'd forgotten something I posted or a PM I sent. I've gone over everything I've said publicly and privately for nearly a week to make sure.
The person in question says absolutely no, they did not say anything. And remember, this all happened in about 30-35 minutes.
Is there another possible explanation other than the scenario I describe? Sure. It's just very hard to see.
But there are two things:
read again what RJ said
even if somehow magically a little bird whispered in RJ's ear, why is there an unwritten policy that I may not send private messages containing certain content?
If Chris wants to provide an alternative explanation that's believable, I'm all ears. Better yet, state the policy. That's the point of this post.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:43pm PT
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It would be nice to know what's really going on....gossip, 2nd hand info and innuendo just don't cut it. Jess sayin', lynnie
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 02:52pm PT
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There is something wrong with your link.
;)
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 27, 2014 - 02:54pm PT
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The original,as almost always, was better more tongue in-cheek.
I was told I was getting old and the computer was something I had to take in my stride
So I spent some time getting a clue and then used a feature that only implied anonymity now my secret is out and all I can do is pout that MY secret rock and guide will get snaked.
It has lost a lot in this representation of a two-pitch climb an all
Pistachio event
On the shaded side of the canoyon Darkthawts D’nim
Pistachios who climb in the newest hot spots .
Climb from the sun to the shade, belay from a comfortable stance.
them young nuts don’t bother with This kind of advice
climbing all most the whole line in sun
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 27, 2014 - 03:18pm PT
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Thanks for the response.
It's a service provided by a private company, do what you gotta do.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2014 - 03:25pm PT
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Wow. So since google uses an automated program to search for keywords in e-mails sent to gmail accounts, you think it is ok for your to periodically open and read correspondences between members. Although I guess I should not be surprised, I am disappointed and a little creeped out that Cmac and RJ do this.
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