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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 9, 2014 - 09:37am PT
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The first ascentionists thread has become a discussion about bolting. Bolting on free climbs has been a way to open up rock terrain, previously avoided because of the lack of protection, to the FUN pursuit of rock climbing. First ascents of this nature are made with the intent that subsequent ascents will follow.
FUN doesn't mean easy, climbing is meant to stretch a person both physically and mentally. FUN also, clearly, doesn't mean that possible injury or death is the result of a fall.
FUN for one should be fun for all, especially on routes where bolts were placed to make them accessible in the first place.
Test pieces, a time honored climbing tradition, should be test pieces for someone climbing at the grade.
If a 5.12/5.13 climber puts up a sparcely (read dangerous) protected but good 5.9 should it be left that way because he/she was the first ascentionist?
It was not close to a test piece for the first ascentionist because it was so much below their grade but it might be a really dangerous hurdle for a 5.9 climber.
Real danger can be had in serious alpinisim...a pursuit not followed by many here.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"Real danger can be had in serious alpinisim...a pursuit not followed by many here. "
Some people prefer to test their mettle on a runout slab in the lower 48. I've got lots of respect for those who choose this kind of mental & physical path regardless of whether it's on a regularly used crag or on some lonely spire in a remote corner of the globe.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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A lot of this will have to do with local ethics. The nature of the crag as it has developed.
If a poorly bolted route is put up in a clearly known sport crag it seems to me that adding a few appropriate bolts is a proper thing to do. There is no sense suckering some newbie sport climbers who expect a near gym level bolted experience into some run-out hospital bait.
It's harder said than done though even in places like city of rocks or other dedicated sport crags due to the tradition of not messing with the FA's perogatives. Generally folks still try to get "permission" or sadly leave a bad route as it is. I hope this changes a bit for safety sake.
Clearly this does not apply to the B-Y or for that matter even the slab at the end of great white book. Local ethics and well know crag traditions such as in Tuolumne seem very reasonable to respect.
However there are sport routes in Tuolumne...
Hmm do they deserve the same respect if poorly bolted?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Shouldn't the climber have the primary responsibility to research and understand the nature of the undertaking they are considering before venturing out?
Why change the nature & experience of a route simply to make it 'safer' for future ascensionists?
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a wide variety of routes for varying interests.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Talk to old school FA folks -
A common theme is "some routes were meant to be test pieces...don't mess with them!!!! But others were just for fun, feel free to add bolts."
Of course the ASCA doesn't add bolts, but I've heard that from multiple old school folks.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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I HATE the constant reference to a "5.12" climber putting up runout 5.9.
Paul Ross I doubt was ever a 5.12 climber, and at your age Jim he was putting up run the hell out 5.9's at the swell. (and he also did Fissure Brown in flip flops when you were in diapers).
The majority of climbers have weaker minds than those who climbed 20+ years ago. They are certainly stronger, but not tough enough to live without Soy Chai Lattes.
Other ascents should try to emulate the first ascent or climb in a better style.
do better, cleaner, no beta ascents.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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If it's a sport route then it should be properly bolted without run outs and bad ground fall issues. I do think it's generally obvious when you get on a botched up sport route that some idiot threw together. Those I have never respected and have no problem if someone wants to "fix" it up properly. I've added 2 bolts to routes like that in my old home town crag and moved one.(heh chossy Seward Highway)
Always been my opinion.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 10:03am PT
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Most local ethics were established by people climbing at the grade. A runout 5.9 established by climbers who were stretched by the climb is fine. What about a 5.9 climb put in by someone who was strolling in the park that becomes more than a stretch for a 5.9 climber?
Runout 5.9 slabs are not usually dangerous, just exciting.... i'm referring to climbs that were romps for the FA but are clearly dangerous for subsequent climbers.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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soy chai latte is a coffee enema, very fashionable.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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I think it as easier to answer this if you consider the purpose of the route.
Is it meant to be a sport route? Then it should be a sport route. Was it put up in the pre-sport route era and simply has a couple oh sh#t bolts on it placed on lead? leave it alone as a testament to another era. For that matter later routes put up with the same runout ethic in an area where it is common should be left alone too.
A crappy lazily stupidly built sport route should be improved.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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sandstone,
that is a "dirty" soy chai latte.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Aurora Colorado
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Well even at the Baseline Starbucks you get a mix of girls with soy chai lattes and homeless dirtbags who just go there to use the bathroom. Derek H's friend Keith likes to talk about how he used to live under a bridge in Boulder. Yes the town is full of arrogant rich people but there is always an underclass trying get a foothold with a job as a busboy, or selling Amway door to door. Basically, rats living off crumbs in the palace.
As for routes, the best ones are continuous. If there is a harder section it is better protected and vice versa, so that the experience is more a mental fight to not give up, then pulling some trick move at an overhang on a slab route.
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couchmaster
climber
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Donini asked: "The first ascentionists thread has become a discussion about bolting. Bolting on free climbs has been a way to open up rock terrain, previously avoided because of the lack of protection, to the FUN pursuit of rock climbing. First ascents of this nature are made with the intent that subsequent ascents will follow.
FUN doesn't mean easy, climbing is meant to stretch a person both physically and mentally. FUN also, clearly, doesn't mean that possible injury or death is the result of a fall.
FUN for one should be fun for all, especially on routes where bolts were placed to make them accessible in the first place.
Test pieces, a time honored climbing tradition, should be test pieces for someone climbing at the grade.
If a 5.12/5.13 climber puts up a sparcely (read dangerous) protected but good 5.9 should it be left that way because he/she was the first ascentionist?
It was not close to a test piece for the first ascentionist because it was so much below their grade but it might be a really dangerous hurdle for a 5.9 climber.
Real danger can be had in serious alpinisim...a pursuit not followed by many here. "
I think that it's area dependent. One areas ethics and history can be radically different from another areas. Go with local custom or leave things be if one is unsure would be my belief.
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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The majority of climbers have weaker minds than those who climbed 20+ years ago.
I think Honnald and Potter would have something to say about that (yeah I know you said majority).
I hate this underlying theme though, because it's always taken out of context. Of course these guys were harder, because in order to succeed and...not die you had to be the best of the best. You had to forge your own gear not drive 10 mins to buy it. The inconveniences of the time period made it much harder for the average Joe climber to climb.
But who's to say our mind is weaker than the days of old?
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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i have not yet chopped bolts,
though i have made local whispers of such intent.
instead,
i choose to indulge gluttonously upon a
high fiber dinner;
the next day i climb an offensive
route, and as i clean my gear,
i take a steamer upon each bolt.
the hyper-fiber content
pretty much petrifies the log.
and the heat of the sun cures
the dung, no suitors
take dead strides here
for days,
and perhaps an aggressive-passive message
is conveyed at perked-up minds
that lurk behind a sedated verve
and rampant fear.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Travis-
Do you know how I know your mind is weaker?
because first, you are on this site.
second, you are not creating test pieces not repeating some 30 year old route.
not news:
so and so repeats BY, so and so repeats Space Babble.
news:
Travis January 23, soloed NF of twin by a new line left of Lowe-Jones, dropping 63% of gear through a storm. Ascent took 17 days, ate own foot, drank own urine, and released only a dozen photos of ascent (NSFW). Travis refused to issue a topo and just nodded his head while downing a bottle of MD 20-20.
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Travis Haussener
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Rick D first off well played,
But...why does it have to be news worthy to suggest it's a test piece. Climbing is subjective, what's easy for some is incredibly difficult for others. Sure in your example I'd be pretty news worthy if I ate my own foot...but why does it have to come to that to be able to say I have a strong mind.
What if a strong mind is feeding a family of 4 and still getting out every weekend.
Or working a 60 hr week and still crushing 5.12's.
It's too subjective to make an absolute conclusion about strong minded vs weak minded.
One man for sure fits this description though...Steve Hong, crushed Indian Creek while in Medical School. IMHO that's as strong minded as you can get.
Edit: I apologize for the thread drift.
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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To answer thread title: Yes, the same ones as the FA party.
The "rights of the FA" party or however you want to put it is really just about stroking the ego of someone you might never meet.
The concept of a "test piece" on rock that was bolted, and theoretically, could be bolted more, makes zero logical sense. Any sport route at any crag could become a test piece if you go and chop bolts. It's really just about people going out there and risking bodily harm because someone did decades ago. Or should I say, taking on additional risk, as all climbing assumes some risk.
Question: Why did the FA party place ANY bolts, and not just solo the line? Answer: Because they didn't want to risk falling and dying. Logical follow up: If they bolted to add a degree of safety, why are they the ultimate deciders of how much safety should be added? Answer: Luck of the draw - when they were born, decided to start climbing, and got to the area.
Unfortunately, it's hard to make any argument that the state of a route should be a community consensus thing, that doesn't lead to the Bachar-Yerian becoming more closely bolted, which I know is probably not what should happen.
Personally, I choose to win this game by not playing. I either climb routes I can protect with gear, or where I'm comfortable with the protection that's there. I'm never going to go out and retro-bolt. I do feel it's a shame though there are certain routes that a lot more people would enjoy if we didn't have to cater to one person's ego, in perpetuity. Flame away.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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travis-
first, hong did not "crush" anything.
he went to an area with very few people and climbed new lines from the ground up, because that is what you did. An area that intimidated many for years because pro did not exist or was certainly rare to protect this stuff. Indian Creek in 1983 had 3 people climbing at any one time.
When, was the last time you went anywhere without people?
Damn noble of you working 60 hours a week and raising a family. A lot of us do that it is called life.
You want a second ascent that will create some memories that you not going to die on? Find "Teresa". Because it is a 2 hour walk bring some RP's along with a standard rack. Out there, waiting. You will be along with the ants and the bears/lions. Just drop me a line when you are done. No spraying about you crush-fest on a trip report. We will talk then. That is the beta I was given- can you survive on that?
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