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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:11pm PT
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http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/Anniversary-hike-ends-in-tragedy-near-scenic-spot-4683166.php
>But just hours into Monday's trek, 27-year-old Elisabeth Bervel died of cardiac arrest, becoming the third hiker in a month to succumb to the brutal summer heat and disorienting open country where no marked trail shows the way.
So, because the wilderness zealots refuse to allow any marking at all, but send 10,000 people a year into this situation, they are surprised that people get lost and die?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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Maybe if folks could choose for themselves the day they hike - instead of having the permit process decide it for them months in advance - then they wouldn't feel compelled to hike it when it's so damn hot. If the permit was for a window of time, instead of one day certain, it would be possible to wait out dangerous weather conditions and still do your hike of a lifetime.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:23pm PT
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This is a tough one. I feel bad about this death as well as the couple that died a couple weeks ago.
However, I'm partly on the side of, as you put it, the "wilderness Zealots". Should we pave a road in there so that the place is overrun with tourons and no-one has to venture far from the safety of the their air conditioned RV?
It's southern UT in the summer. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out the risk of that hike. Either be prepared with maps/water/GPS and an early start time, or don't do it.
Some places are better experienced if they are not overrun with crowds. This is one of them.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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There's a relatively well worn path.
With a modicum of situational awareness it's easy to follow.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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um... maybe a cairn here and there would do the trick?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:27pm PT
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It's southern UT in the summer. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out the risk of that hike. Either be prepared with maps/water/GPS and an early start time, or don't do it.
So, in the 10,000 that do it, you have people that are fit, and prepare with maps/water/GPS.....and something goes wrong. In this case, they got off into a sand formation, and the woman ran out of steam. Then died.
Who said that repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result was the definition of insanity?
However, I'm partly on the side of, as you put it, the "wilderness Zealots". Should we pave a road in there so that the place is overrun with tourons and no-one has to venture far from the safety of the their air conditioned RV?
This is EXACTLY what I mean by zealot. There could be some very innocuous route marking that would avoid almost all of this, using native materials, etc.......but you typify that as "paving a road".
Is paving a road your solution to everything? Didn't God give you a brain to think of other solutions?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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Senseless and needless tragedy. I don't want to make any judgements on the hikers that continually get lost, but it's July. It is July and that is Arizona. There had to be some kind of disconnect...
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Sciurus
Sport climber
St. George UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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The BLM actually does a good job of providing hikers with detailed information before they are allowed to embark on their hike to The Wave. The provided map has detailed instructions with photos of all the landmarks to look out for. The vast majority of hikers with even a modicum of route finding skills will have no problem sticking to the route. The fatalities for this specific trail has much more to do with its popularity, and thus the sheer numbers of people doing it, as well as people underestimating the risks of hiking in the desert when temperatures are over 100 degrees. Having said that, given that it is such a popular destination, I agree with you that a few well-placed cairns can do no harm and might just provide that additional help to a person or two who goes there with little outdoor experience. My biggest concern is that the recent fatalities will result in an over-reaction that diminish the wilderness aspect of experiencing The Wave.
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mwatsonphoto
Trad climber
los angeles, ca
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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It has been several years since I've done that hike (I've done it several times) and remember there being cairns on some of the flat sandstone portions of it. The BLM office gives out a map with pictures of distinct features to look for as you are hiking in too. I've certainly seen people with a plastic bottle in their hand hiking back there and that just seemed crazy to me.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:34pm PT
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So, in the 10,000 that do it, you have people that are fit, and prepare with maps/water/GPS.....and something goes wrong. In this case, they got off into a sand formation, and the woman ran out of steam. Then died.
Who said that repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result was the definition of insanity?
Ken do you know that that they had a GPS or map? Or sufficient water? I've been there. There is a trail of sorts.
And a different article I read on this said that they didn't leave until 8AM. That's kind of a late start for the 100+ temps and no shade that would be typical of this hike in the summer.
There's a lottery for Mt Whitney as well. Would you excuse people who went up when thunderstorms were predicted? Or in the winter when a blizzard or sub-zero temps were forecast?
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krahmes
Social climber
Stumptown
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
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How about a GPS and a few hours of pre-planning befor the trip; for the everybody must take care of me a my ego zealot types. Between Google Earth, the internet, and GPS it never been easier not to get "lost". I suppose responsibility and self reliance is dead. Wake me up in a better age.
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Bullwinkle
Boulder climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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Have any of you ever gone though the Wave permit process? I did this Febuary and made some photos there, the trail is very well marked ( they give you a map, with landmark photos)and about as easy a hike there is. The Wave is an extremely fragile place, without strict controls it would be covered in Grafitti and destroyed. As I've said the trail is well marked and a very straight forward 45minute hike, would I do this hike in July? I'm not that stupid.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:36pm PT
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There are multiple reasons that would make this hike accumulate casualties.
The photos of the place on screen savers and calendars promote it.
It's a short and relatively flat hike.
Those two things attract an unprepared demographic.
I don't think there are any accommodations close enough for an early enough start unless you camp.
The permit system encourages people to take a chance on a day they shouldn't go.
There are (were) cairns at key locations.
Did it early before the permits kick in as well.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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It just occurred to me that there is another way of looking at this:
With places that have huge attraction: Whitney, Half-Dome, The Wave.....that are in wilderness.
When you have 10,000/year accessing it, a method of assessing whether you are preserving the wilderness character, is whether you have multiple fatalities a year. If you are not, you are not doing your job as a wilderness steward.
So....good job! Mission accomplished.
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10b4me
Ice climber
Middle-of-Nowhere, Arizona
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:38pm PT
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My condolences to the families.
Maybe if folks could choose for themselves the day they hike - instead of having the permit process decide it for them months in advance - then they wouldn't feel compelled to hike it when it's so damn hot. If the permit was for a window of time, instead of one day certain, it would be possible to wait out dangerous weather conditions and still do your hike of a lifetime.
Not a bad idea, but there might be other work arounds.
I think there are other factors involved in these deaths, but out of respect to the deceased, will withhold my comments.
Wendell, yeah there is that cg, and Page, Arizona is about an hour away.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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It just occurred to me that there is another way of looking at this:
With places that have huge attraction: Whitney, Half-Dome, The Wave.....that are in wilderness.
When you have 10,000/year accessing it, a method of assessing whether you are preserving the wilderness character, is whether you have multiple fatalities a year. If you are not, you are not doing your job as a wilderness steward.
So....good job! Mission accomplished.
Hard for me to tell if you're serious or trolling. Are you saying that we should dumb everything down until there is no risk of fatalities, and people have no need to look after themselves?
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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I thought it was strange that a 27 year old woman would have a heart attack, so i googled her name. Perhaps they should list her weight in the articles instead of her age, since that was more likely a factor. Not everyone can do this and the solution isn't handicap access so the drones in their electric walmart carts can motor out there.
"The Wave" didn't claim a life, Darwin did.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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FACT: The victim was pretty fat. Google her name. She should have been dropped off at a KFC or the pool while others with a modicum of fitness went on the hike.
EDIT: She's already reproduced, so you can drop your Darwin comments.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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Ken do you know that that they had a GPS or map? Or sufficient water? I've been there. There is a trail of sorts.
And a different article I read on this said that they didn't leave until 8AM. That's kind of a late start for the 100+ temps and no shade that would be typical of this hike in the summer.
There's a lottery for Mt Whitney as well. Would you excuse people who went up when thunderstorms were predicted? Or in the winter when a blizzard or sub-zero temps were forecast?
Based upon what others have said about the good map with pictures given out, I'd say they had a map. Based upon the outcome, I'd say that they didn't have suffiecient water....although what might be sufficient water for a 45 minute hike might be totally inadequate for a multi-hour ordeal.
You ask about Whitney, and I do think it is analogous. I've been part of a process to reduce safety problems there for the last ten years. It is a private effort, because the USFS would not/could not make an effort. It is educational in nature, the FS points people to it, and there has been a major reduction in incidents, particularly fatalities.
An example of a fix on Whitney coordinated from that website that had to do with poor signing, that resulted in many rescues a year:
http://www.whitneyzone.com/wz/ubbthreads.php/topics/26384/all/Lower_Trail_Crest
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10b4me
Ice climber
Wishes-He-Was-In-Arizona
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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certain aspects of society that have NO business in these environs
I would tend to agree.
When I climbed Middle Pal , the route was rated third class. Now I see pictures of people roping up on it.
Same thing on the trail to Angels Landing in Zion. When I hiked it, I thought, no big deal.
Now people tend to fall off the thing.
And there's the cables on HD, i.e., clipping in
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