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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 24, 2013 - 10:43am PT
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Ok time to bring this to the ST:
a "bold" route done in 1988 has been retro bolted, without the consent of the F.A party...
Its a bummer when i see these things happen as it seems to degrade the effort of the FA party and weaken the standards set back in the day, when we had less advanced gear, shoes, no gyms to train in etc.. todays climber should have no problem stepping up to the plate and giving it an honest go instead of creating short cuts to make an ascent...
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/archangel/108240564#a_108254896
I have drilled plenty of bolts, on the lead, on rappel, some bold routes, some well protected.. but i have never added bolts to someone else's route, not even on the Muir Wall. Come on people, go find virgin rock to enjoy the thrills of an FA, but please leave the standards of yesterday intact.
kurt
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jul 24, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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I've come to realize over time.. not every route needs to be "safe". Hell some routes don't ever need to be repeated.. There's millions of miles of stone out there to climb without messing with someone elses route.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:25am PT
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Not only does the child piss on others accomplishments, he even questions whether they did them in the first place:
Reportedly freed by Thom Byrne in 1988, Archangel remained largely ignored until 2013. If Byrne freed it, his ascent was extremely bold.
.12c, not exactly an Earth-shattering grade these days (although I'd love to be able to climb that grade right now!). But to question whether it was even freed, because it would have been too hard, adds to the incredulousness action of the dim-wit.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:32am PT
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Yup, I had the same sentiments when I saw it on MP as well.
Nothing new for BoCan, or Dream-your-a-hard-climber-Canyon, though.
I've given up and gotten used to it. It's just the direction that climbing seems to be going; no more room for new bolted routes, might as well retro-bolt the ones nobody ever does.
Edit:^^^ You could compare this to Double Cross if it now had 14 bolts running up it. Not really the same thing....
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:38am PT
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When questioned about run outs during the early sport craze and "safe" routes, Mark Wilford was quoted as saying:
"Safe isn't one of the reasons I started climbing. Why don't we just bulldoze all these mountains down so we can all be safe?"
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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Stupid Americans do not understand that one must always be safe no matter what.
Whether one runs out 80 feet with no pro, free solos or clips multiple bolts.
The bottom line is still, to be safe in all endeavors ......
Safety is relative!
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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So I ask this, did the climb really get "done" in 88....
If it is a bold climb, with general knowlege that it really has been free climbed. Than the RETRO is wrong.
But some climbs that have been "climbed" are still in question if this is true or not. Look at some of the more questionable climbs in Southern California... Refiners Fire ... 14B, heck there was $10,000 riding on someone climbing that free, so if one day it gets retro bolted and freed, might not be a big deal.
On the other hand if the EDGE gets retro-bolted there will be hell to pay.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:57am PT
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So I ask this, did the climb really get "done" in 88....
There are a LOT of routes that fall into that category.
I guess we are now released from the responsibility to actually find out?
Hell, a couple of damn good climbers in Oregon actually went to the trouble to contact me about some REALLY obscure routes of mine from the late 70's. Imagine that.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
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any way you look at it its a bummer. dumbing down the sport for another blog post.
folks need to look outside the front range, there are plenty of new routes to be had, just have to drive and hike a bit.
can this post get to 100? 200? 10,000?
HAHAHAHAAAAAA..
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
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How Ryan Braun of the retro Bolter.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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Survival....I think there are climbs that are in question if they ever truly, were climbed.
Hard to condem retro, if it was really some sort of project.
Any CO locals who have knowledge if this one??
The MP folks are silent on this one.
maybe the new standard in CO, thats why none are to pissed.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:53pm PT
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This seems to be a trend. History ignored or forgotten. I've had several of my routes from the 70's and early 80's retro bolted on rappel and erased, renamed, and new "first ascents" recorded over them. They weren't of earth shattering difficulty, just 5.10-11, but you had to think to accomplish them with a margin of safety. The illusion of safety- from cradle to grave.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
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A little surprised that I don't read much about people chopping bolts here...
Just doesn't happen 'round here. Climbers just shrug their shoulders and say that the route should be chopped, but nobody does it. Climbers say silly things like "if you don't like the bolts don't clip them" or "my personal protest is to not clip the bolt". Similarly, "my personal protest to chipped holds is to not touch that hold." Oh so brave....
Really what this boils down to is did the FA/FFA give permission to retro-bolt? Anyone?
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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Who gives a sh#t? Climbing should really be for you - should be about cheering for others you think do proud work, and otherwise minding your own business. They aren't chipping new holds or tearing down the rock, so does it really affect you? It really boils down to measuring peckers, which if you're secure in yourself, is a waste of time for all involved.
Spot on. Who really cares. This is an obscure climb. The dude that put up the route should really be the only one with a say in the matter.
Not a fan of the behavior but really why freak out about it you were not the one that first put the route up.
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neversummer
climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:07pm PT
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sounds like the retro-bolter has been prepping for this by doing the new workout craze in Colo....
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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Not a fan of the behavior but really why freak out about it you were not the one that first put the route up.
I don't see anyone freaking out. But if we don't speak a little loudly, we will certainly see more of it.
Big fat bolts going up some Tuolumne routes would be nice. It would compensate for my lack-a-sack since my climbing moves are still pretty good.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:49pm PT
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Retrobolting in Boulder Canyon has been a fairly common theme the last 20 years after the bolt ban that started in the Flatirons and the beginning of the bolt review board that is regulating Eldorado Canyon. Only recently has the Flatirons gotten its own bolt review board to dictate which crags can see new development.
Locals that knew better just shrugged their shoulders and let the sportos take over that chossy Canyon since there are 1,000's of other trad routes in town which will never be bolted and are more fun to climb.
Unfortunately this lackadaisical attitude resulted in 100's of routes in BC getting retrobolted. The Sport Park was all top ropes and bold leads until it was rediscovered, Tonnere Tower was completely covered in lichen, trees, and loose blocks until some blowhard that wanted to up his Mountain Project points destroyed that cool green ecosystem just so they can preen and strut in front of the tourists at Boulder Falls.
Castle Rock and the Dome are the last few hold outs from the retro bolting.
It's only Boulder Canyon, where noobs have easy access to the rock and then back to town where they can spray on MP while sipping chai. Nothing new to see here and far from a growing trend at the other crags about town.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 24, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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Why all the talk? Pull & fill the bastards, and be done with it.
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Laine
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:07pm PT
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With all the virgin rock out there, why sully someone else's climb?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 24, 2013 - 02:08pm PT
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Yep, the guys who put up Archangel 2.0 are real Boulder blowhards/sprayers (including climbing harder and bolder than 99.9% of ST posters, but that's Boulder for ya!). I guess preening around Boulder Canyon isn't enough for them, they need to their preening in Upper Dream Canyon, and we all know what's going on there.
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