Thoughts on Haul Lines (Static vs. Dynamic)

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benzo

Big Wall climber

tacoma wa.

Topic Author's Original Post - May 21, 2013 - 01:10pm PT

With the recent events on the Muir, and some brief discussions and opinions on haul lines (static vs. dynamic), I've been pondering the possibilities of other options.

I'm an Arborist by trade, wall climber by passion and although I too have used static haul lines in the past for the obvious reason of less wasted output of energy hauling your pigs, the safety issue of a "last chance back up plan" is heavy on my mind.

Just doing some brief research on ropes, for instance, the Yates wall rope (dynamic lead line) has a rough elongation of 34%. The typical 11mm static haul line has a rough elongation of 2%.

What are your thoughts and opinions on a rope somewhere in the middle of these?

At work as an Arborist, we use a dynamic climb line similar to the dynamic climb lines used for rock climbing. In trees, our fall potential is not as great as the potential lead whip we all hate to enjoy. Therefore the elongation percentage of our tree climb lines is often in the realm of 6-8% at 500lbs force. Stretch that out over a distance of a potential 200 foot "worst case scenario" fall....

Could it save your life?

At an approx. average of 6-8% elongation, (and out of personal experience) I know that the wasted energy of jugging up these tree lines is considerably less than the wasted energy of jugging up a fully dynamic lead rock line. The same theory could be said for hauling, not as much stretch and wasted energy as an old dynamic line being used as a haul line, and possibly a safer "last chance, worst case scenario" back up line being used as a haul line. And since these Arborist ropes are designed as "working Ropes" they are constructed to be abrasion resistant, have working load limits and tensile strength markings, great knot-ability, and come in various length options up to 600'.

I'd really like to hear your opinions/thoughts on this. We Arborists have been using gear and techniques that the rock guys have been using for years, maybe this could be an opportunity for us rock guys to bum an idea or two off the tree guys.

Cheers.

Lambone

Big Wall climber

Ashland, Or

May 21, 2013 - 01:13pm PT

I lead with a 5 mil tag line.

If my lead rope gets chopped I want them to scrape my remains off the talus.

Sure you could climb with two lead lines. You could also bring two gri-gris, two hammers, two sets of jugs, two full bivi kits...when does it stop? In the end, when your number is up, yer gunna die...

nopantsben

climber

May 21, 2013 - 01:31pm PT

how about using a static line with something that stretches that is a meter or so long attached to the end of said line which then is attached to the harness? like a screamer and a thin, dynamic bit of rope?
although I always attach the haul line to a gear loop that breaks in case the haulbag goes for some reason... (which also seems like something (albeit unlikely) that could happen over the course of the thousands of pitches that are collectively climbed)

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

May 21, 2013 - 01:34pm PT

I don't consider the bouncing when you're jumaring to be a problem. A couple years ago I threw away my classic goldline rope - I used it caving and it was like jumaring up a rubber band. A beat out lead rope seems ideal to me, and it's what I learned to do. ALWAYS tie into the haul line, was what I was taught. I think 20 years ago no one was using static ropes for haul lines. But, I may be one of the only ones here who still climbs on double 8mm ropes. (not on walls obviously) I know that's prehistoric but I like having two ropes and I don't think the weight is a big issue.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

May 21, 2013 - 01:37pm PT

Yeah, I was thinking exactly what Ben says above...why not connect your haul line to your harness with a screamer in between?

Would it help? Sure. Would it save your life? No idea. Somebody runs the calcs...200' fall onto static with a screamer in the system.

benzo

Big Wall climber

tacoma wa.

Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 01:38pm PT

Lambone, i wasnt refering to climbing with two individual lead lines per say, more refering to replacing the haul line with a lesser static system. i agree with running light, but even then, a haul line is generaly brought along.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 21, 2013 - 01:40pm PT

In the history of climbing, how often has this exact type of accident occurred?

Also, aside from only a few routes, where else on El Cap can you fall 200+ feet and not seriously hit something?

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

May 21, 2013 - 01:49pm PT

Every time I tagged a haul line it was by some little loop in the back of my harness. If I took a 200ft fall on it I am sure it would rip out anyway. Is it common for people to connect their tag line to a tie in point on their chest harness? But than again, I have not done serious aid, and only wore a chest harness on one climb.

benzo

Big Wall climber

tacoma wa.

Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 01:50pm PT

mark, you have a great point. its most likely you're going to deck off something before a haul line catches you.
as for the screamer theory, even a meter long screamer that stretched 10 feet would be too much stopping force too quickly for our bodies to handle. I think youd need a longer deaccelaration distance. And by that time, you'd prob deck.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

May 21, 2013 - 02:00pm PT

Was thinking just what Mark said, but will also note that Edelweiss makes a semi-static rope that will take a single fall factor 2 dynamic fall without breaking. It seems like if you cut or cored your dynamic you could at least lead on it (with an old school dynamic belay).

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

May 21, 2013 - 02:07pm PT

What happens when the haul bag unexpectantly leaves the belay ledge with a static line ? does it tear off the rope . I imagine with static lines it would be especially important to make sure you have independent hauling anchors.

Lambone

Big Wall climber

Ashland, Or

May 21, 2013 - 02:10pm PT

I think if you are relying on a 200ft chord clipped to the back of your harness (dynamic or not) as your back up...you are looking at minimizing your climbing risk from the wrong perspective.

The bottom line is that it wasn't the static haul rope that caused Mason's death, it was poor judgment placing gear in loose rock. It's unfortunate, sad, but it is the truth.

What happens when the haul bag unexpectantly leaves the belay ledge with a static line?

In that case you done f*#ked up big time and are gunna get what you had coming to ya.

michaeld

Sport climber

Sacramento

May 21, 2013 - 02:11pm PT

+1 for just free solo.

Don Paul

Big Wall climber

Colombia, South America

May 21, 2013 - 02:12pm PT

^^^ yikes! We also have to think about shock loading the anchor. If Mark's 300 lb bags fell 100' and came to an abrupt stop, there would be a mighty force on that anchor.

Mark Hudon

Trad climber

Hood River, OR

May 21, 2013 - 02:13pm PT

It sounds callous but I think Lambone is right.

snowhazed

Trad climber

Oaksterdam, CA

May 21, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

+1 for Lambone

benzo

Big Wall climber

tacoma wa.

Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

^^^
In all honesty, im kinda with you on that lambone.
i was pondering things over last night and wanted to broaden the thoughts a bit in technique and tools.
I'm personally of the mantra of "if its not broke, than dont fix it", and wanted others thoughts.

Nilepoc

Big Wall climber

May 21, 2013 - 02:16pm PT

Since we are talking about the force of a fall on a static line. How severe was the impact on the anchor in the fall last weekend? Would an anchor be at risk in such a scenario?

It seems the belayer Mark was extremely lucky.