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I am
Trad climber
San Diego, Ca.
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 6, 2012 - 04:20am PT
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I hit a nerve, as intended, in my letter on the mountainproject.com website forum.
It created a shitstorm as expected but mostly I've gotten the answers I needed on how to get my message out and how to post my topos so that people will stop, hopefully, out of embarassment, adding bolts to my 1st ascents that have been documented in the San Diego climbing guidebooks from D. Kennedy and C. Hubbard.
Their 1st edition was respectfull, but their 2nd edition was a slam againist me and my son.
This came about when D.K. called me one day to tell me that he had added a bolt to one of my climbs and that others were doing likewise.
I went up to my main area-Descanso Crag off of Wildwood Glenn Rd.-and found that numerous bolts had been added to my climbs.
Of particular concern is the ones that were added by cracks that would accept "clean" protection.
They noted in their guidebooks that the 1st ascent style and such should be respected, yet D.K. did the opposite and in their 2nd book made note that the "climbing community should decide on what's in the best interest of all and not just a couple of people"-meaning me and my son.
I removed the bolts added to my climbs in between their 1st and 2nd editions-thus the slam in the 2nd edition such as my climb "Into the Eye of the Son"-dedicated to Jesus Christ as now noted in the 2nd edition as AKA "In Your Eye".
They also noted that "Ant Farm" was improbable, no doubt because they couldn't climb it.
The crux of the climb is that there is an invisible to the eye key handhold that must be felt out like a blind person, and once found makes the climb highly probable at 5.11 max. or less.
There is another climb that I've put up at Stonewall Pk. that they've called "contrived" in their books-yet everyone else I've climbed with has called it "genius" because no one had "seen" it and it is truely a beauty.
I consider 1st ascents as works of art but lately once again I find bolts added to my climbs by the gym-type rats that have infested San Diego County crags lately.
Some useless, worthless want-a-be has added several epoxied in bolts on my "Into the Eye of the Son" which starts out following a seam/crack that is only 5.6 - 5.7 and protects with a # 4 Rock and a .5 cam before it peters out into face climbing of which I put in a bolt, and then a 2nd bolt before reaching the crux at the roof which protects with a # 8 Rock, a # 2 Rock and then once you turn the roof I added a bolt later on after the 1st ascent for the enjoyment of others that follow.
Many of the climbs I've put up I've done with less or no bolts and then came back and added to them for the sake of others safety and sanity.
As you may have guessed by now, I love to free solo but do not ever expect for others to feel compelled to risk their life and limbs on the climbs I put up and the key to this all is that I'm talking about areas that are fully and eaisly top-ropeable therefore there is no risk should someone feel that I haven't put in enough bolts and/or there is not enough "clean" protection oppertunities.
That said, please check out the b.s. that's gone on in the last few days over my letter posted at http://mountainproject.com webesites forum section under the Southern Calif. section-in particular the comments about my paragraph writting style as I blasted the letter out from work in between concrete pours for the new bldg. we're constructing for Helix H.S.
My last rebuttal I put out yesterday has pretty much calmed the idiots of retrobolting down as I put them in their place, but hey, it's really hard to cure stupidity.
As for me, once again I have to take time out of my day to remove the retro-bolts from my climbs and the comments about I don't own the ROCK are of course true, but I do own my 1st ascents and have put them up with much imput from the others I've climb with and if you don't like the ones that have some risk and skill required, just top-rope them and shut the front door on your way out!!!
But my main point is that if we all just could follow the 11th commandment given to us from Jesus Christ to "Love you neighbor as you love yourself.", then we could finally have world peace-it's just that simple.
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I am
Trad climber
San Diego, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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I realize that it clearly appears that I'm down on DK and CH who wrote the guidebooks and I must add that they do convey ethics quite clearly.
But what concerns me most is that it should be more strongly stated about leaving the sports climbing gym attitude in the gym and remembering that San Diego has come up way back when as a traditional climbing area trying to emulate that of Suicide, Tahiqutz, JT, Yosemite, etc.
This isn't just about history and not wanting to change but rather about preserving that which makes us more and not less and not trash established 1st ascents, respect the rock and most importantly each other.
DK and CH should in my opinion release a 3rd edition focusing back to the traditional outlook and I do know that some sports climbing is not a bad thing, just one I don't endorse, especially on crags that are eaisly
top-ropable.
As one can tell, I'm very passionate about climbing as climbing has made me much of who I am-a man with ethics but still just a man also with weaknesses trying day by day to be stronger and work around my weaknesses.
The good news is that because I try, I am making progress and will continue to do so until I'm off to the next life.
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Jonnnyyyzzz
Trad climber
San Diego,CA
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I Am, I just read the post over on MP and some of those guys need there asses handed to them. Sorry that your FA's got messed up. I hope you find the guy/guys that did it and they help you fix them.
You may have to cut the epoxy bolt off drill the shaft down past the rock and fill over the top. I don't think you'll have much luck pulling them like you would a regular bolt. Good luck.
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WBraun
climber
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Dontcha all know?
Mainstream stupid Americans have entered into climbing.
It was never intended to be for everyone.
You had to be willing to die for it .......
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Tim Camuti
Trad climber
CA
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Thank you for posting this story here on ST and being detailed about the circumstances. We of the younger generation are able to learn from cases like this about the community policing ethic of climbing and what to keep an eye out for. Your sharing allows me to learn about real world cases, not theoretical cases on the internet. Thanks again for sharing, and know that some places are still staunchly traditional, even when bolts need to go in, and that we younger folks are learning slowly and carefully about the achievements and standards established by the actions of those who came before us.
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joshklingbeil
Trad climber
Arizona
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chop chop. It's lame when people try to bring climbs down to their level.
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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I can't believe that in this day and age people think its okay to drill on someone elses route. When I started climbing that was one of the first rules I learned. Respect the rock and the ethics of the FA. I'm not a tough guy but if i don't have the cajones to lead the pitch i don't break out the drill i climb something else. Eldo is one of my local areas and there is a permit/review policy that controls and drilling or fixed gear. It works because the community polices themselves and the concensus is to preserve the original ethics of the area. Its good to have scary climbs. I'll probably never lead Jules Verne but the fact that it is there makes eldo and the sport of climbing better for its existence. Our history is rooted in risk and the self discovery that only happens when the consequences are severe. I think its reprehensible for people to dumb down the sport because their egos are to big to admit that a climb is above their heads.
its like Eastwood said " a mans got to know his limitations"
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Slinky00
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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It cracked me up reading a few of the posts on MP that tried to justify bolting cracks with "who wants to pack 20 pounds of extra gear to the crag". Wow.
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o-man
Social climber
Paia,Maui,HI
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I hit a nerve I have been following this with great interest.
I too have had the good fortune of finding a few strikingly beautiful virgin lines and developing them into climbs using strict traditional style.
I appreciate your stand and feel you worthy!
BTW: I had no problem reading your letter on MP.
Respectfully, Olaf Mitchell
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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I consider 1st ascents as works of art
I strongly agree with this. I used to be a painter, but does the world need another wall decoration? I wanted an art media that people could physically and emotionally interact with. I found that in creating routes for others on public land.
I'm not qualified to comment on your routes having not seen them. I also think this debate on an open forum of peers is very valuable for all.
For me there are two ways of going up a route:
1. For yourself at your level, but without consideration for others to follow. This kind might be best left unreported, or reported simply that you climbed it, not with a topo or name or anything for others to follow.
2. Craft it for others. Study the rock carefully, create the line, work out how others will climb it. If you are strong, you might want to dumb it down a little, particularly if it is in a popular area. It doesn't have to be super safe, perhaps it should be a little "spicy."
Lastly; bolting where there is obvious trad pro available is very uncool.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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It was never intended to be for everyone.
You had to be willing to die for it .......
Agreed. Seems like people are trying to sanitize the rock and turn it into a Disneyland gym experience.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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It created a shitstorm as expected
Hilariously clueless. Almost every single person agrees that retro-ing without FA approval isn't cool.
What people took you to task for, and rightly so, was your inability to follow basic writing structure by putting paragraph breaks into your writing. It was a garbled mess such that most people won't even bother to read it. Add the bizarre chest thumping that you are "an original Stonemaster" despite the reaction to hearing your name being a universal "Martin who? never heard of em".
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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I'm glad you posted what's going on. It lets people know what's up and that's good. You put up routes. (Granted some routes are better than others.) Pretty cool. Hard to understand why people second guess others work, meddle with it, and worst case claim a route as theirs. Kinda like adding paint to another artists original oil.
Watched this happen eons ago. Some things never change. Back then along side the stonemasters were the slandermasters spewing and doing the negativity thing. Those close to me avoided them at all cost. They climbed and lived and loved what they did.
"let the chips fall where they may".....truth and beauty eventually win out.
Peace, lynne
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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These retro-bolter boys have been at it for quite awhile. Having climbed in the county since'70, I've seen 'um add bolts to established climbs at the Gorge, Corte Madera, and El Cajon Mtn. Guess they don't know or respect the climbing history of this great county. Hadn't been to Descanso Crag for a few years, but wasn't terribly surprised that someone(s) had added bolts out there. I can't figure out why, when there is so much rock and such a variety of climbing, people need to lower standards to some self perceived norm.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Define "Stone Master"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Not wanting to place pro in a crack for fear of carrying a pack full of cams and wires? Is that for real? What kind of "climber," lacking all modicum of sac and healthy shame, actually admits that on a public forum?
That amazes me. I'm so old I have totally lost touch with the current thinking at the crags, even though I go there now and again . . .
JL
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Yup, John, I met a kid climbing recently and we climbed together the rest of the day. Good kid, solid person, nice. After awhile he was leading up a 5.6 face with bolts every 12' or so and said it wasn't safe and needs to have some bolts added to it. It was a reasonable comment... IF... you know nothing about climbing and its history. And, that's just it, and what I say all the time... I just wish the new crowd would read up on climbing history. That's all.
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I am
Trad climber
San Diego, Ca.
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2012 - 09:05am PT
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Thanks to all for your comments-I knew we were still here even though many have gone into retirement or semi-retirement.
When I figure out how to stop getting older and not age, I'll share this as well.
I've been given instructions on how to post my topos on the supertopo website and will get around to doing so this week for others to not say they didn't have access to the information and will clearly see that most of the rock on the 3 crags noted have been fairly well climbed out, but that there's still several 1st ascents and boulder problems awaiting-you have to "see" them and then "do" them and let's hope, "with style".
This is the way of becoming a Stone Master, why would you want to be anything less?
We have much to learn by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us-I forget who said that but it has stuck to my memory like glue.
And yes, everyone getting into climbing no matter what level you have ambitions for, read the books of the history so that you'll have a clue and not be clueless!
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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i am with you on this one.
bolts should not be added to existing routes unless the FA folks want to do it..
climbing in the gym is not climbing outdoors and people need to suck it ump if there is a bold route that they wish to climb.
chop them, patch them and move on to the next one..
ks
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