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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 16, 2003 - 02:25am PT
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Hi Greg,
Are these the same as the 'euro' ring bolts that I've seen on El Cap? The bolt is flared at the head where the ring attaches and the ring is about 1 1/2" in diameter but made of fairly thin diameter metal? Am I on the right track?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2003 - 02:42am PT
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Not sure - I don't remember them as flared, and I haven't seen the El Cap ones.
But otherwise sounds right, the ring is pretty thin and 1.5" in diameter.
Greg
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Nemo
Big Wall climber
Colorado Springs, CO
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Mar 16, 2003 - 02:56pm PT
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are they drilled ring angles, like you occasionally find in the desert? or is this something different?
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Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
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Mar 16, 2003 - 03:44pm PT
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I've seen these bolts on El Cap too. They're not ring angles. They're some weird euro crap. Over-sized grenade pins. The rings (maybe the bolt too?) seem to be made from some pretty mild steel. I remember an anchor composed of 3 of these bolts near the top of the PO (a variation finish?) and all 3 rings had varying amounts of deformation. They drooped and had become ovoid shaped from being hauled on.
I have no idea what holds the bolt in there, so I don't have any suggestions on how to chop/pull them. They definitely should be removed.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 16, 2003 - 04:46pm PT
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Yeah, that's them - oversized grenade pins!
The ring on the one on Left Water Crack is a bit bent as well, somone probably fell on it at some point.
Maybe Marty Karabin (sp?) in AZ, the guy with the HUGE bolt/hanger collection, has one - anyone have contact info for him?
Greg
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 16, 2003 - 09:04pm PT
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"Over-sized grenade pins"
Now that's freakin' funny!
Pull the pin and you die.
The ones I've seen had deformed rings too. Ug!
They looked like they might be a hammer-in type bolt, but not sure. Chop 'em!
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Mike
climber
Orange County CA
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Mar 17, 2003 - 11:20am PT
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Sounds like a few have seen the toy anchor up high on the PO - three of those goldish-colored, deformed-ring grenade pins. At least in this spot you can equalize them all as one anchor piece and place a couple of good ones behind the block.
A claw hammer or crow bar with a scrap of plywood or two to protect the rock and position the fulcrum looks like the removal ticket. Wear a flack jacket...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Mar 17, 2003 - 01:06pm PT
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Those things are also on LIA and BUBS.
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susan peplow
climber
sweltering phoenix-az
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Mar 17, 2003 - 03:09pm PT
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hey greg,
i'll see marty tonight and ask him to contact you. for future reference........
karabin714@aol.com
susan
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Ammon McNeely
Big Wall climber
Bay Area
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Mar 19, 2003 - 11:56pm PT
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Whooahh!! Those things are dicey...... to haul on anyways.
Although, I didn't see them on BUBS or LIA.
I did see them on the last belay station before you get to the summit of the PO.
Is that a variation? It was dark... and 3:00am.
I remember the rings being VERY oval.... and thin.
Yiiikess!!! I thought it was a cruel joke.
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Loom
climber
K P Pinnacle or Gehenna
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Mar 20, 2003 - 12:15am PT
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Hey Ammon,
Variation? I don't know; I've never seen a topo or heard of anything.
When I first did the PO I just had the old topo and went left where the SuperTopo says, "off route." That funneled me right into that anchor. When I did SS to PO I went to the right, as the ST shows, and I set up my anchor a little lower and farther to the right. I remember looking at that "anchor" and thinking one could go straight up a crack from there, but I don't know what happens after that short steep crack right above it.
Scott
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Ammon McNeely
Big Wall climber
Bay Area
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Mar 20, 2003 - 01:17pm PT
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Thanks Scott,
I didn't have a SuperTopo, not sure what it looks like. I'm pretty sure it's the 27th belay from the Donni Reid book.
I kept thinking "This can't be the belay".
The worst part was there was no way to avoid clipping the suspect rings, except tieing the bolts off short with a sling.
Was I on route?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2003 - 11:50am PT
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Hey Larry, thanks!
That does look just like them, although I didn't notice any taper at the surface - perhaps they cratered the top of the hole, or maybe it's a variation on the bolt.
Any ideas on how to pull them? First thought is just do a way hard funk straight out, but it'd probably break the ring. Maybe pound a sharp-groove prybar onto the bolt then pry?
Unfortunately it does look like the basically-unremovable-Long-life design...
Greg
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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May 22, 2003 - 03:43pm PT
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Funking would be worth a try of course. The ring does look like the weak point though.
I'd be prepared to cut the ring out, then insert a punch into the remaining hole, and drive wedges against that.
Drilling out the long-life-style center pin would probably be key.
I once saw a homemade jack-style bolt puller. Maybe that would work.
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bspisak
climber
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Aug 15, 2005 - 02:31pm PT
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Haven't seen any updates to this with respect to the Dike Route, and the old fixed ring is still there next to the new ASCA bolt.
Does anyone know which was the original protection: the old bolt or the ring? FWIW, this particular ring appears to be much more bomber than the "grenade pin" version mentioned in this thread.
I don't like second guessing someone's decision making when I don't have the whole scoop (especially Gregg's given the great work he's been doing.) However, my first impression is that the old bolt should have been chopped and the ring left as the only protection.
Of course this is all in hindsight, but even if the old bolt was replaced with the intention of eventually chopping the ring, the fact that it was a questionable proposition should have been carefully considered. Of the 4 possible outcomes (new bolt only, old ring only, old bolt and old ring, or new bolt and old ring) I would argue that the current situation (new bolt and old ring) is almost worse than the original situation (old bolt and old ring.)
If the old bolt was left until it was determined that the ring could be chopped, then the option to remove the old bolt and leave just the ring would be preserved. Of course, the new bolt could be chopped, but the resulting damage to the rock is much greater than what the old would have left.
Leaving the old ring only or having the new bolt only seem like the only desirable outcomes. If the ring were determined to be the original pro, then if it could not be chopeed, there was perhaps only one option: ring only.
Even if the ring were NOT original, if it could not be chopped, I would argue that it would have been better to leave it as the only protection. First of all, it looks bomber enough to belay a truck. Secondly, given the nature of the route (harder climbing with longer runouts above), it is extremely unlikley that it would ever be needed. (Even if it was, the low angle nature of that section would mean it wouldn't be subjected to high impact forces.) Third, it gives the route a classic old/school feel. Lastly, the current situation is, IMHO, ugly and feels like a hack. (No insult intended, just my opinion, and we all know opinions are like as#@&%es, everyone's got one.)
Don't want to start a flame war, and certainly not trying to dis the ASCA. Just curious what other people think about this and see if perhaps there are any new ideas on how to chop the old ring?
Brian
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
right behind you
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Aug 15, 2005 - 06:03pm PT
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DEAR GOD, those are so short!
I am glad I didn't use those ones on the PO. I thought the deformed rings looked bad, but seeing how short the shaft is, I am horrified.
I didn't clip them, so they aren't necessary and should be chopped, and not replaced!
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Left Water Crack (one of the 3 bolts)
Let us know!