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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 9, 2011 - 09:37am PT
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I make no apologies for starting this thread, and I do know the topic has been covered on other threads.
There's no question that the self-inflicted damage the debt ceiling debacle has caused is huge. But to me, it is even larger. I have lost over $35,000 (on paper) the past ten days. Thank you Republicans for playing politics and trying to nail Obama instead of looking after America. And thank you Obama for being weak and capitulating to these scumbags, who only care about their own pockets, the rich, and the powerful corporations and not a jot for the average American.
Those super wealthy people and companies that are supporting the Tea Party nutters, along with a lot of help from Faux News, are driving the Repubs farther right. While there are a number of good Republican politicians, their party is being driven from moderation to the right-wing field, with scant regards for the middle class and working class.
Being a full-time carer, with little help from the Irish government, I cannot afford such losses, but these pricks in Washington just wanted to play games and embarrass Obama, which they succeeded in doing.
The difference between the US and Europe with these crises, is that while some Euro countries that are in trouble and headed for an abyss, are sliding that way with little control.
Whereas in Washington, the politicians walked voluntarily to the edge of the chasm for political reasons, they were not beaten there by the markets. This fiasco, that I primarily blame on the Republicans, but the Democrats had a hand in it, has certainly screwed me, and I am sure many other Americans.
Some can blame Obama, and certainly he must shoulder a small share of the blame, but it was Bush’s policies that led to the mess. Thank you Dubya and Dick. Prison is too good for you arseholes.
I said before the 2008 election, on this forum and elsewhere, that whoever won the POTUS, was going to be left holding a poisoned chalice that was Bush’s legacy. Regardless who won the presidency, they would have inherited the same mess that Obama did, and it certainly is a mess that cannot be cleaned up in one term.
A Poison Chalice Indeed.
A BIG EDIT
Unlike what Russ thinks (read down the thread a bit) I am not crying, I am just angry. There is a hell of a big difference, but perhaps some posters can't see that. But I can only guess that Russ would be happy to lose, even on paper, that sort of money (which was the bulk of my savings/pension). But if some of you think that I am whingeing, think again, or think what you want, that's your choice.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 09:45am PT
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Come on Jeff, you know it is not that simple, and don't tell me politics had nothing to do with it. Your boys in DC messed up for eight years and now the average American has to pay for Dubya's drunken party and policies.
And you will not convince me any other way. Certainly not with statistics that can be manipulated one way or the other for one's own agenda. Hard facts I will look at, but stats, well, you know the old saying...
...Lies, damned lies and statistics.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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I don't understand those who do not think that getting the debt down is critical. For myself, I've said repeatedly that the Obama tax cuts for the ich (those are the former bush tax cuts for the rich that the democratically controlled house senate and president finagled to extend when they were set to expire -the democrats own that bullshit now) should have been allowed to expire.
I totally understand those who say that if you give the goverment more money, they will just spend it. It's exactly what just occurred here. We are borrowing more and more just to pay regular bills, it can't go on forever. Might as well suck it up and fix it now, but as seen by recent actions, we can't, and thank God we have a few people trying to get our nations debt to be lower anyway.
It's the dems dragging there ass on spending cuts, vs the repubs who want spending cuts because gov't can't be trusted to get spending down. This one is on the democrats buddy.
Where's Bill Clinton when you need him?
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Legions of never served Americans endorsed the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
DMT, what's with the obsession that someone has to be a veteran in order to have a say in the nation's defence policies?
I am a veteran (First Iraq war - remember the little one?), and I'm against the current wars as much as anyone.
But this guy never was veteran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_madison
Are my opinions more valid than his?
OP: Markets go up and down. Take you S&P 500 chart and expand it out to a five year period, and calm down. Your investment decisions are your own. Take your lumps like the rest of us.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 9, 2011 - 10:06am PT
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"This one is on the democrats buddy"
But Couchmaster, this mess did not start with the Dems, it was well on its way before 2008.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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This Mess accelerated with the 1974 budget act, created by a Democrat Congress that instituted baseline budgeting and guaranteed an annual growth of government of 8% or more, no matter the growth rate of the economy.
What we are seeing is the world wide final failure of Keynesian fantasy.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Couchmaster asked:
I don't understand those who do not think that getting the debt down is critical.
This is a very important question, and is central to almost everything.
First, context matters. One has to look at the economic context. If you have a rocking and rolling economy, and you apply cuts, no problem.
But we don't. We have a troubled economy.
If you go back to when GWB was President, he did something quite amazing, he started two wars, BUT KEPT THEM OFF THE BOOKS, essetially hiding the effects on the budget. When Obama was elected, he brought the wars onto the books, essentially making the wars open and transparent economically, but opening himself to charges by the Repubs of massive spending, as it LOOKED as though he suddenly added to the deficit. HE DID NOT.
So we have this debt problem, as you point out. How can we pay it down?
There are ONLY TWO WAYS: increase revenue, reduce spending. There is NO other way.
If we increase revenue by any method on the middle or lower classes that are struggling to get by, this is a huge burden that will really be felt intensely, right now. Such things as a flat tax, excise tax, user fees, etc. Increasing taxes on the rich will have no such effect, as it will not effect their lifestyle, it is truly painless. It is said that it will inhibit job creation, but that has been convincingly been shown not to be true.
Reducing spending by the gov't seems simple, but what does that translate into? It means either laying gov't workers off, increasing unemployment, or cancelling gov't contract workers, increasing unemployment, or cancelling gov't contracts for goods, causing private companies to increase unemployment: net effect is to increase unemployment.
If you look at the monthly jobs report, this is exactly what has been happening at the state and local level, there has been massive layoffs at that level, as well as layoffs of federal employees.
The beast has been starved. This is what it means to "reduce gov't spending", it means to take people's jobs away.
To do that is a bad economic time, is to make that bad economic time worse, and to make it worse for EVERYONE. That is because people without jobs lose their houses, they don't spend money on goods and services that drive the economic engine, they don't get the economy going again. Starving the economy in bad times is the recipe for extension of recession....except for the rich, who get richer, who acquire more property (which is cheaper), more wealth, who control more of America. They love it.
The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
Worth repeating.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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"Come on Jeff, you know it is not that simple, and don't tell me politics had nothing to do with it."
oh, the irony...
maybe now you can see clearly the utter simplicity in your opening post
let's see...
who leads the party that controls the senate that has not produced a budget--AS REQUIRED BY LAW--for nearly three years?
who ignored the recommendations of his very own "debt commission"?
who offered a budget in january that INCREASED the deficit?
who offered another budget in march that was defeated in the senate 93-0?
who vowed to veto any bill that included a temporary debt extension and then demanded an extension that would last "THROUGH THE NEXT ELECTION"?
who demanded $400 billion in ADDITIONAL tax increases after boehner agreed to $800 billion in secret and against the wishes of the repub majority in the house?
who refuses to offer any (zero, zip, zilch, none, nada, nunca) specific ideas on how to "reform" entitlements or other spending?
who continues to blame the poor economy on repubs, the tea party, corporate jet owners, the rich, the japanese tsunami, middle east unrest that he helped foment? who refuses to accept any responsibility for the utter failure of his economic policy?
who is attending multiple fund raisers--in the middle of what he calls a "crisis"-- (when he isn't golfing) where patrons are paying $35,000 a plate (btw, who can afford those tickets? ya think, maybe barry has some rich friends?)?
who continues to give waivers to BIG CORPORATIONS and UNIONS to excuse them from the increased costs created by his health care bill that is supposed to reduce our costs? how much you want to bet there's a strong correlation between the people who attend his fund raisers and the people receiving health care waivers?
ok, libs, please, name ONE time in history (all of history) in which raising taxes during an economic decline actually resulted in higher tax revenues and an improvement in the economy? i can name THREE presidents who raised tax revenue by CUTTING taxes: kennedy, reagan, bush
yes, give the gov more money and they will spend it; they will NOT pay off the debt; they will NOT reserve it for entitlements that already have TRILLIONS in unfunded liabilities; they will NOT help the poor, improve education, reduce health care costs, or protect the children...the history of just the last hundred years is proof
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
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re: God's party
Yet not one mention so far of the Republican voters who live in trailers who vote Republican because it's God's party. Look no further than Michele Bachmann who cites God in just about every sentence.
The devil's in the details. Who puts the Repub professionals in office to begin with. The American people starting with my own aunt and uncle.
Stop letting the embrace of Christianity fly through under the radar. Correct identification of the problem is often half the solution.
.....
And though it pains me to say, if for chrisakes, you are a Dem and believe in God then start working that into your side's narrative. And maybe you too will get some traction.
God and Country.
God and Love and Peace.
God and the Helping Hand.
What would Jesus do?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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If this was 1932 Fatrad would be a Jew for Hitler.
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apogee
climber
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"This Mess accelerated with the 1974 budget act, created by a Democrat Congress..."
Well, if that budget act ultimately resulted in a budget surplus like we had in the 90's, then bring it on.
Which party turned that record-breaking surplus into a record-breaking deficit? Hmmmmmm?
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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The Republicans don't mind shooting a hole in the ship and watching the third-class passengers drown, because they figure they've paid for access to the lifeboats on the Titanic, and they've shipped their goods on a freighter.
Worth repeating a second time!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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look at how well everyone was doing during the Bush presidency 2002 - 2007, low unemployment, low interest rates, rising stock market, record home ownership.
Bush and his cronies (including some Dem accomplices) built a bubble that was bound to pop with artificially low interest rates. The record home ownership was due to many people who should not have been owning homes buying them using sub-prime mortgages.
This is what created the Great Recession.
Bush also ran up record deficits so when the Great Recession did occur the federal government was financially insolvent and almost powerless to help.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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There's no question that the self-inflicted damage the debt ceiling debacle has caused is huge. But to me, it is even larger. I have lost over $35,000 (on paper) the past ten days. Thank you Republicans for playing politics and trying to nail Obama instead of looking after America. And thank you Obama for being weak and capitulating to these scumbags, who only care about their own pockets, the rich, and the powerful corporations and not a jot for the average American.
Those super wealthy people and companies that are supporting the Tea Party nutters, along with a lot of help from Faux News, are driving the Repubs farther right. While there are a number of good Republican politicians, their party is being driven from moderation to the right-wing field, with scant regards for the middle class and working class.
Word.
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apogee
climber
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'Farce?' fattrad, the money was real.
You guys always retort against the 90's budget surplus statement with your 'yeah, but Clinton just inherited a good situation'. Why don't you extend the same consideration to Obama? (as a bad situation)
Whatever. The fact is that, however or whoever was Clinton's predecessor, or whatever conditions were present during that time, he left office with a massive surplus. The next president, no matter R or D, had the responsibility to manage that condition- and Shrub did it his way. The disastrous way.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Obama inherited a AAA rating.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Fattrad I'm NOT a liberal I am a capitalist.
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apogee
climber
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fattrad (& TGT), look- I think I understand the gist of your position on economic policy, and how Obama should have handled the Shrub-disaster in a less Keynesian manner. The argument towards directing 'stimulus' at private business instead of gov't programs has elements of logic to it, to be sure.
What leaves me incredulous is how you, or any other rational American, would believe that the Republican Party possesses the ability to implement true conservative economic principles any longer. When Reagan ran wild with spending, you might have been able to rationalize it away as a one-time deal. But such mega-spending and economic irresponsibility has become the very nature of the Republican Party.
How or why in the world should anyone believe that a Republican POTUS would have done any better on 1/20/09, or will be able to fix this any better in 2012?
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