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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 9, 2006 - 11:48am PT
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Dirt,
When you run a line down through the head on those hammers I think you can see the handles move your hand away from the wall a bit. Won't know prices until we spec out the head brackets, heat treat, finish, and assembly costs.
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spyork
Trad climber
Fremont, CA
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Healyje,
I used hammers for many years in carpentry. I found I really liked the wooden handles as opposed to steel (Estwing) or fibreglass. Seemed to be easier on my hands and arms, and I was more accurate with a good wooden handle. Do people find that to be true? Is nailing really just nailing?
Steve
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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"Is nailing really just nailing?" Not when it's heading.;)
I like the bottom pic a little better than the top. A little less aggressive of a curve.
So....what happens when you turn the hammer around and use the pick to paste a head? I know it's not neccessarily the best way to do it but it does get done.
Would it get snagged on a holster or a gear loop that you are pulling it out of?
It might be better to stick with a straight handle but I would like to try out one of the slightly curved handles. Know what style, part number, or company contact info for the handle you have in mind? I have a wall hammer head with a fiberglass handle like the Omega Pacific hammers that I don't really like. I would love to field test a new handle with that head on it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 02:22pm PT
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Theron, I agree with you on the bottom one and your comments on suitability for heading. I doubt Klaus would buy off on it. We'll have to ask him given he probably has a broader context for what a hammer is and needs to be than most of us. Again, at some point I'll ask Conrad if he couldn't jump in with his thoughts.
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1timer
Trad climber
The Future
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Healyje,
I know this project is in the earliest of phases but any idea when they might be finished? I would like one of these but am in need of a hammer in the next few months and dont currently have one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 06:30pm PT
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My hunch is we probably won't make that timeline...
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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The first thread started last March, so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Joe, how about an update on where you are with this? What's been done, what needs to be done, costs and holdups?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2006 - 07:04pm PT
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Caught,
Since getting a thumbs up from Conrad in Decemeber, I've been the holdup. I promise to get it underway by Monday. We're nowhere on it all beyond the preliminary look into the technical and legal aspects of it, the latter of which have now been resolved.
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1timer
Trad climber
The Future
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ok...but keep me on the list
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 16, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Not sure if the design for the Deuce5 hammer head has been finalized yet, but here are some pictures of a hammer that I helped to design and still use. Klaus and Wade use this hammer as well and seem to like it. The hammer was produced by Klym Me Rock Products and sold under the name of the “McDevitt hammer” (Dan also helped with the design). It is no longer available, but has some features that work quite well.
As opposed to cast or forged, the head is machined and the narrow pick shape works great for setting/placing Cu/Al-heads as well as cleaning out munge and rotten rock on fresher terrain. A proper head-placing kit is still needed, though. The square edges allow for more precise hammering in tight corners, especially when placing beaks or rurps. The larger cleaning-biner hole accepts the tall nose of a BD oval. The combination of the longer handle and heavier head-weight makes cleaning stubborn pins easier, not to mention sinking them to the eye in the first place… The weight also makes it great for drilling. One drawback of the design is the head / handle attachment. Over time, the head becomes loose, and requires additional steel wedges or nails to be driven into the top end of the handle to keep it tight, although the head is secured to the handle with a roll-pin (through a wedge) so it won’t fall off… unless you snap off the end of the handle.
Anyways, the A5 attachment (like the BD/Chouinard) with two metal tangs is much more solid and reliable. However, because the attachment is so solid, the hammer tends to have a harsher ‘feel’, especially when drilling. For this reason, I prefer to use the McDevitt hammer, rather than the A5. (For the serious stuff, the BD hammer is a light-duty tack hammer, but ok for something quick or for an extra backup - IMO.) Maybe there is a way to add some sort of dampening system in the attachment of the new Deuce5 hammer so that we have the best of both worlds – a super-solid head attachment on a hammer that you can comfortably swing all day long.
The narrow pick design might be something else to look into, if possible with the existing forging die. I’ve found that I rarely, if ever, use the pick-end of a hammer to clean pins, etc., so a blunt pic that doesn’t work as well for placing Cu/Al-heads, etc. seems like kind of a waste. Does the orientation of the cleaning-biner hole make any difference (vertical vs. horizontal)?
Just throwing some ideas out for discussion…
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Feb 16, 2006 - 10:38pm PT
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Hey BL I think it's time to tip and bend give me a call. Once you get use to the swing of the modern framing hammer going back to a straight handle feels like the special olympics, if $ wasn't an issue you could drill out the center of the handle and fill it with a polymer to change it's attack but were talking about a hammer that cost 2x ( oh about the price of your average ice tool). People who work with implements are use to resetting the heads when needed but that task does require another hammer.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 16, 2006 - 11:03pm PT
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Yeah, that’s what I’ve been thinking, bro… Time to unleash some more crazy distortion!
I’ve got a California Framer (in addition to several others) from my hammer-swinging days but we never thought about putting one of those handles on the McDevitt. I’d have to give it a try. Maybe it would have a better feel. Prototype sounds like the word… as with them beak thingies…
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 17, 2006 - 12:10am PT
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“I just can't imagine not using a chisel and/or punch to place a head of any size.”
Most definitely agreed, bro!
“I don't see the need for a good pick swing on a rock hammer”
Do you mean in reference to the shape of the handle or the shape of the pick? I would agree that the primary swinging direction (straight) of the hammer should be towards the hammer striking end, rather than the pick end.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 17, 2006 - 12:31am PT
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Ahh, good point about cleaning nuts with some precision taps with the pick.
Remember that super-old-dad Chewy hammer that has the super-munge pick? Guess they really did like that groveler stuff back then, aye? Or is that what you are talking about?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 17, 2006 - 01:56am PT
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So will the beautiful melodic ring of the piton be scorned into oblivion and replaced by the mechanical engineered sounds of the chiseled copperhead that forces the natural weakness when modern passive gear loses its justice?
Will Yosemite become a court room of ethics?
Is the copperhead the last bastion of aid tools that needs help?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 04:58am PT
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Well, where to begin. Bryan, this is the first I've heard of this hammer. All I know at this point is that the mold for the A5 is what it is and short of filling in or otherwise altering the existing A5 logo I'm not sure that there is much point in trying to modify it. And I don't have metals background, but my understanding was / is that the cold forged hammer head is quite hard and meant to be so much more than the BD which is cast. Machining one out of some hardened metal would I suppose be a possibility.
Bryan, I guess this all falls into sort of the same deal as the beaks. My intention all along has simply been to recreate the old A5 products using the existing molds and dies. No doubt there are improvements to be made on both, and while those would probably be not all the difficult to execute on the beaks, it's starting to get into an entirely different realm when it comes to the hammer from my perspective. Putting a different handle on it is one thing, but I think taking an wholly different path on the head is a bit of a departure from the work I originally had in mind.
Given you have beak and hammer designs you appear to want executed, we should probably put some thought into what we are doing and what we really want to get done. Look, I'm the Valley wannabe here. I've been using Forrest and BD hammers for my work out at Beacon and while I'm fine with them, I've been under the impression that the A5 is a cut above both and I had hoped to acquire one before hitting a wall in the Valley. I'm way more than willing to defer to what the likes of you, Klaus, and Ammon think a wall hammer ought to be. Maybe you guys should convene a design summit and "hammer out" the details as it were.
I'm just getting clear of my current project and so can start taking this up but I'm a bit concerned about what in my business we call "scope creep". Reproducing the A5 stuff is fairly straight forward, these new designs are a bit less so.
Deuce, Klaus, Ammon, and all the rest of you wall aces - what are your thoughts on the hammer design?
 Hardness?
Stiffness?
Head attachment?
Face profile / edges?
Pick taper?
Handle shape?
Vert vs. horiz. funk hole?
Leashing?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 17, 2006 - 11:03am PT
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Perfect is the enemy of the good...
Keep it simple...
...[paraphrase=Chouinard] no one ever made money making climbing equipment [/paraphrase]
My opinion (of course nobody asked) is that the quest for the ultimate wall hammer is endless, and that unless the popular masses take up that aspect of the sport there is really no commercial pull for designing the ultimate hammer. The hammer projects will continue to be small, local efforts done by people who have the skill and interest to develop that tool, but no prospect of commercializing the end product. The A5 hammer was probably the best commercial hammer available. But even here the sales prospects numbers 100, where 250 items is a minimum production run. This project floods the market.
New hammer development will happen. But going from development to production is a long road. The A5 hammer has been down that road.
For me, I am holding off buying a new hammer waiting for the A5. My guess is that a change in direction for the "open source hammer project" would see me buying a Black-Diamond hammer which has been sitting on the rack of the local climbing store for years.
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malaka
climber
gothenburg, sweden
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Feb 17, 2006 - 02:07pm PT
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Ya, I´m with Ed. Let´s get the ball rolling on the A5 and maybe, just maybe, we can have a hammer by summer..
Unless of course Minerals has the whole thing ready to go into production straight away, cause´ it looks great!
And beaks please!!
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Feb 17, 2006 - 02:43pm PT
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Hey, I don’t mean to throw a curve ball into this project; I just thought I’d throw out some ideas to think about. We/you don’t have to modify the existing A5 design at all if we/you don’t want to. And it’s not for me… I’ve got an A5 hammer (signed by the Deuce), two Chouinard hammers, and three or four McDevitt hammers, so I’m set for a long time. I don’t need another hammer.
It just seems like if we are going to go through this whole process, why not look at other options and possible improvements, provided they don’t ‘get in the way.’ These concerns kind of outline one of my struggles/frustrations in life – EVERYTHING can be better… but it isn’t. I could give the (so-called) engineers at General Motors a serious piece of my mind… but they wouldn’t listen because I don’t represent the general masses. The average Joe won’t know any difference so why let performance cut into profits? (Not that we are discussing profits here because there will be none…) But even if the average Joe doesn’t recognize the fact that they are using a refined product, they will still be using that refined product that does in fact function better. The civil ‘engineers’ that work for the City of Reno probably wouldn’t listen to me either… Oh, well… Guess I better stop dreaming of utopia…
So, as for the hammer, do whatever seems like the best bet for everyone involved. Something like a narrower pick design may be as simple as just grinding more off the sides of the pick after forging. But, as for the beaks, I will keep pushing for the new design because simply put, it works better.
Carry on…
edit:
(ps - my "average Joe" comments are not directed at you, Joseph, in any way. I don't mean to offend anyone... Just using a generic phrase.)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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Bryan,
As I said, I'm open to other ideas, just wary of what's involved. But if we were going to go to that much trouble then I'd want Deuce, Ammon, Klaus and others' input on the whole affair. How about laying out all the specs on the McDevitt hammer?
Head material?
Hardness?
Funk hole drilled/machined how?
Who has Funk hole drill/machine jig?
Heat treatment specs?
Handle source and model #?
Personally don't care for a regular head attachment, but that's just me. Again, Deuce, Ammon, Klaus, and Others? A little design input would be helpful here...
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