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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 26, 2006 - 11:42am PT
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healyje-
Did you put up the FA of a route near Gorum IL called LeapFrog(also called Casual Horrors)? This route was listed in the second edition of Vertical Heartland, but has been omitted from the last two.
I talked to one of the guys on the second ascent party a little about it, and he made it sound like the second ascent was quite an adventure. He said that the you guys, on the FA, ran out an entire pitch of 10+ ow, then had to descend during a moonless night, finding your way using only the phospholuminescent fungi.
Stories about this route or any other old southern Illinois stories would be appreciated. Eric's synopsis of SoILL history in the latest version of Vertical Heartland is terrific, if you haven't had a chance to read it.
I've been trying to get some people together to give the old testpeices at Giant City and Makanda a try, but with the quality of leadable routes at Jackson and Draper's being so good it's hard to persuade them.
Thanks
NickH
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2006 - 02:21pm PT
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Nick,
History is made by the folks that bother to right it down. Jim Tangen-Foster, Doug Drewes, and I never did so Giant City's place in the history of SoIll climbing is largely glossed over and some of what information is included is inaccurate. This wasn't a deliberate slight on Eric's part, he just wasn't around for that history and didn't get much in the way of any cooperation from us when he did ask long ago.
I will at some point be writing a history of GC for him sometime this year but the best way to look at GC and our contribution is to think of those years from '75-'77 as the narrow neck of an hour glass. SoIll climbing prior to those years was largely driven by a posse of ex-cavers who climbed less technically, at a lower level of difficulty, and that climbed everywhere driven by a need to explore; those early years represent the wide base of the hour glass. Giant City then came to represent a focusing of all that SoIll energy into a single place for a brief period during which we developed a more physically technical and demanding style of climbing [on overhangs and roofs] while still adhering to a rabid LNT ethic. The routes at GC were put up in a specific progression each building on learning from the previous one. Many of them we couldn't even "see" until our skills had developed to the next level and then a new climb would be "revealed" to us to work on. (On visits it always amazed me to see people jumping on them randomly, but then no one bothered to write the progression down).
Once those routes were all accomplished and the learning passed on to another several generations the bottleneck that was GC came to its natural conclusion. At that point younger generations returned to the first generations' desire to explore but pursued it with the advanced skills they learned in GC. Climbing then exploded in a big bang above the hour glass' neck expanding into a plethora of routes that made Jackson Falls and Draper's Bluff into premiere climbing destinations given their broad expanses of rock and the coincidental rise of sport climbing. But neither would likely exist as they do today if we hadn't all passed through the lens and prism that GC represents. Almost all the routes in GC have been completely neglected and there are some spectacular ones there. Most haven't seen traffic in a decade from what Jim and I could tell when we were down this past October. That is a real shame, but then most are also technical and demanding and in many respects different than the style that looks to have developed since.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 26, 2006 - 09:01pm PT
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As for "Leapfrog" out at Fountain Bluff (overlooking the Mississippi River), yes, Jim and I did the FA of that route. The name stems from the fact that after our first go, the other two times we went out there hexs had been left on the roof by what appeared to be two different parties. We always suspected Adam & Alan and some folks from St. Louis, but never were sure.
I believe I worked out the roof and Jim the OW above. But the phrase "resorted to leading the ow without pro" in Eric's description isn't quite right. I think he used the one big CMI IBeam I had for pro (see photo) but then who knows whether that would have held and I could be wrong and he did just run it out as he never liked fiddling with gear. Jim did rings in college, still pulls solid .12, solos too much, and runs most sh#t out matter of factly - he generally isn't "resorting" to anything when he does it as it always came as naturally to him as it did a decade later to Thurmond. I do remember once we had the roof and the turn figured out we felt totally confident about dialing it on the next go which we did.
When we did finally get to the top it was an overcast, moonless night and things went pitch black before we had a chance to gather our few wits about us. We were literally blinded on top of a bluff we'd never been on that featured many encroaching steep finger ravines. We were reduced to crawling on our hands and knees trying to feel our way to where we thought we might be able to rap and do it without falling off an edge. Everything was thickly carpeted in moss and the terrain very lumpy so it was very difficult to tell the difference between a one foot dip in the moss from the edge of a two hundred foot drop. Jim inadvertantly turned over a large branch whose underside length was covered with some bioluminescing fungi. By that time our eyes were adjusted to the dark and it gave off just enough of a glow to light the way to the real edge allowing us to get the hell off that bluff. It was probably one of the spookiest experiences I've ever had as we really were terrified about walking off a mossy edge in the dark.
We understand ten years later Jim Thurmond and Eric Ulner bolted it thinking it was an FA, named it "Casual Horror", uprated it, and in general had a great FA experience on it which I think is great - that's what LNT was all about, we both got to have cool FA experiences. Now that there are wide cams the bolts could probably go but it's kind of a one-hit-wonder in the middle of nowhere so I can't imagine anyone bothering. If you find yourself addicted to roofs you should definitely make the trip though...
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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Healyje- Thank you so much for all the info!
I would be very excited to read your history of Giant City, and the "middle of the hourglass" development of southern Illinois climbing in general.
It was Eric I was talking to about Leap Frog. I don't think the ow was rap bolted. I gather that he and Thurman in the midst of their own epic were aiding/free-ing the OW and placed desperation bolts on lead (He and Thurman returned to free it another day.)
It was funny talking to Eric, he said the belay bolts they sunk after the route noticeably creaked and shifted, and in the initial telling all the other bolts were crap as well. As he saw me getting more intrigued about the route, the quality of the bolts kept getting better.
I think he just wanted somebody else to climb the route. The bolts went from "rust stains in soft rock by now", to "well I wouldn't want to fall on 'em", to "probably ok, just bring some screamers".
If I can get anybody to go try it I'll just bring the big gear and forget the bolts. The ow pitch intimidates me a lot more than the roof crack.
Nick
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2006 - 12:13pm PT
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Healyje-
That's the first time I've ever seen CMIi-beams, they look pretty prone to being tipped out in a typical So-Il flaring crack. I gather Fountain Bluff is limestone though so, maybe not. What are the approximate lengths of those pieces?
When talking to Eric about this route (one of only a few conversations I've had with him), I gathered only that he had a very deep respect for you, Doug, and your contemporaries, so no disrespect was meant by "resorted". That may even be my word as I don't remember the conversation verbatim.
If one was going to follow a progression of routes at Giant City, could the routes in Vertical Heartland be used. Could you just follow the grades or do specific routes build on each other?
Thanks,
Nick
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
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Nick,
Eric and I get along fine and don't think he ever "disrespects" what was done back then or otherwise gets down on us at all. We both have a high regard for each generation's contributions to SoIll climbing. The "resorted" comment is out of the guide book and his use of the term is actually reasonable if you didn't know Jim Tangen-Foster - you'd assume it was a complete desperation move. But knowing Jim, and Jim Thurmond for that matter, you'd know it was more like business as usual and my comments were more directed towards letting folks know that about him and the route than at Eric's use of the term.
I pretty sure we didn't do any hanging belay at all - we just figured out the roof and turn and then Jim fired it off. It was also committing for me as I wouldn't have been able to either lower or get back on the rock if I had come off seconding given the lack of pro we had, and with Jim doing a hip belay on top we'd have been screwed. That was a route where I didn't quite think it all the way through like I normally try to so it was good we went out there confident about it all. And the CMI IBeams sucked big time, but that's what we had. They're in Stephane Pennequin's Nut Museum in Corsica, France now.
And thanks for correcting me on the rap bolting, I've obviously had that misconception all this time. Aiding it would likely have been a big adventure and maybe even scarier than just climbing it. Definitely do go check it out. Just take a couple of big cams out and Tiblocs / MiniTraxion / 48" Mammut dyneema slings for the second in case they end up hanging - but better to go out there with someone else strong. I'm not sure why Eric left it out of the guidebook but I'm sure he has his reasons. I think he has done way more for SoIll climbing than anyone else and deserves way more credit than he ever looks for or receives. But like most of us, he's doing it because he it's what he loves doing.
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nickh
climber
St. Louis, MO
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 27, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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Awesome.
I have a buddy who repatriated to Boulder, coming back this way in March. I think he'd be up for it.
I'm very curious about your comment on the "progression" of routes in GC. Did you have a specific progression in mind? I can see the value of following an order (to some degree).
Nick
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Mark
climber
bend, oregon
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Jan 27, 2006 - 02:38pm PT
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are you talking progression with grades?
interesting read joseph. i've climbed in jackson falls and as you know, it looks a lot different now then it must have, "back in the day".
i will say the bolted routes are awesome though and on very good rock.
mark d
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 27, 2006 - 04:03pm PT
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Mark and Nick,
Mark, I guess I didn't realize you'd been back there or am having a senior moment. Yes, the JF was very, very wild back then and you'd have needed a machete to get very far out from the falls. We never did explore the whole thing as we just started jumping on cracks as they turned up. We did do a few of them there, in the JH, and in BellSmith Springs back in the mid-70s but never bothered to name or record any of them as we were way, way into the LNT thing and felt these hollows should stay wild. I still feel that way. But if one was going to be developed then JF has been handled exceptionally well over time and represents a solid respect for both the hollow and the rock. Between Drapers and JF I there is no shortage of climbing and I hope the rest of the hollows do stay wild.
As for the GC route progression; hmmmm, it's definitely wasn't a progression of grades or straight difficulty, more one of developing the vision to see routes and of the advancing techniques required to do them. Here would be my quick shot at how it went down though I need to run this by Jim and Doug sometime:
 Drunkards
Gulley (left and direct in the middle and various starts)
Camel's Back (and as many variations as you can do all over it)
Gulley (at top straight up the middle, up left, traverse, etc)
Makanda Layback
Open Book
Monkey Move
George's
Joe's
Bob's
Poison Ivy
Open Book Direct
Poison Ivy Right
Dead Dog
The Bulge
Everything back in the Cove (please don't use chalk back there)
Nameless Wonder (Roof in Garden Of the Gods - now closed)
Jim Tangen-Foster arrives in C'Dale
Skyhook (off limits now - up and right of Bear Trap)
George's Nose
Graves (easiest way up [was not called 'Graves', Adam changed it after the dry B&G wines Mark Rudis brought out])
Waterloo (for god's sake someone cut down that stupid f#cking tree!!!, it was like five feet tall back then and if we had only known...)
Open Book Direct Direct
Poison Ivy Center
Rappellers' Demise
Crackpot (Jim did it in a snow storm)
Jill's
Poison Ivy Right Start (then up right over the ironwork and up the outside all the way)
Full Moon Foot Dance (starts on the right side of Camel's Back, probably need a cheater rock now)
Double Barrel (will have to draw these two as the description is wrong)
Shotgun
No Vacancy (isn't contrived, but rather was meant to set Poison Ivy's traditional start into a separate and quite nice line)
Leapfrog
Harder Graves Variations
Knobless ( formerly the Electric Koolaid Acid Test which was like .13+ that doesn't exist any more and was done tripping [see "The Naked Edge"])
My Feet Are Smiling
Leaves of the Failing Faith (if you bolt & glue the rock back up - a premier highball stuck tripping)
Dim View, Dark Shadows, Night of the Living Dead
City Limits (straight up to the top over successive rolls, not bailing left at any point)
The Naked Edge (unfinished, just left of Rappeller's, you'll see the small horizontal edge above)
Fiddler On The Roof (closed)
Fiddler In The Sky (unfinished, traverse right after crux and up through notch, closed)
Fear Of Flying (closed)
Put someone through that progression with a smattering of Eldo and the Gunks along the way and if they come out the other end they'll be a good climber. Also as a side note, all these routes were done without chalk which was much despised at the time for giving away seeing how the routes are done which was half our game. And these may be TR's, but keep in mind there is much to be learned about figuring out cruxes under pressure on climbs where you can't dog that translates well to runout trad. So, while JF is great, it's hard to imagine not figuring lots of these out as well when they are so close to C'Dale. Can GC be a zoo? Yep, but dealing with it was always part of the charm.
To round out a native SoIll climber nowdays I'd throw in Draper's; JF for face climbing; Devil's Tower and the Valley for Cracks; Tuolumne, Cathedral, and Smith for a different feel; the Valley, Cannon, Looking Glass, Diamond, and Black Canyon for humility; the New and the Red just for sheer entertainment; Banff, Sierras, and North Cascades for alpine; Bouldering as desired. I'd then head for the Blue Mountains West of Sydney for what I think is the best stretch of climbing on Earth - but, hey, now I'm totally running amok...
Here is a shot of "The Naked Edge", would be very burly - look for thin 6" long horizontal edge you'd be going for...
Here is a shot of "Leaves of the Failing Faith". It was way pre-pads and we piled up an enormous row of leaves to do it with Jim and I taking about 25 rides each into it before the crux block came off on Adam's first go at it. I tried to epoxy it back up but it would need to be epoxied and bolted as it's too heavy for epoxy alone. The block is still under the leaves if you fish around for it. The epoxy is still evident on the block and where it came down from. I left it in case I ever got back to it but never did.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Jan 28, 2006 - 03:52pm PT
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Wow, great thread guy's. I wish some more of the of the old school So ill climbers would post up here.I really regret not being able to meet you and all those other legendary climbers at the old timer climbers renunion in Oct. We were on our way but My driver got arrested while we were in route, we were like 2-3 miles away, and I had to go post bond. Just another classic So. ill story to add to my long list.
Joe, did you ever climb around little grand canyon? or Horseshoe canyon which is right next to it? Me and J.T. put up some routes around there thinking they might be FA's, but with you guy's running around those hollers in the 70's I am not so sure.
Although style and ethics have changed a lot since the early day's in So ill, I like to think that energy that you guy's embodied trickled down and is alive and well in So ill.
The Chancler's bro's are a good example, as is Matt Bliss and many others. Jason Kehl has put up some high ball problems, as me and J.T. still do from time to time down there.
I would also love to read a history of GC.
As to your list of areas to round out the So ill climber, you left out the Karakorum, which we will be be visiting this summer in an atempt to put up some FA's.
Ok so I am not a native So. ill lad, but that is where I learned to climb.
Joe, do you have Jeff Frizell's (Sp?) e-mail, I met him at JF last year, and he was interested in doing a wall in Yos. Shoot me an e-mail if you have contact info, also on another note, I still have those FA bolt and hangers from Zenith if you want them for the Corisca Museum.
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ericulner
climber
Southern Illinois
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Jan 29, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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nickh wrote:
"It was Eric I was talking to about Leap Frog. I don't think the ow was rap bolted. I gather that he and Thurman in the midst of their own epic were aiding/free-ing the OW and placed desperation bolts on lead (He and Thurman returned to free it another day.)
It was funny talking to Eric, he said the belay bolts they sunk after the route noticeably creaked and shifted, and in the initial telling all the other bolts were crap as well. As he saw me getting more intrigued about the route, the quality of the bolts kept getting better.
I think he just wanted somebody else to climb the route. The bolts went from "rust stains in soft rock by now", to "well I wouldn't want to fall on 'em", to "probably ok, just bring some screamers".
If I can get anybody to go try it I'll just bring the big gear and forget the bolts. The ow pitch intimidates me a lot more than the roof crack.
"
Nick,
It was early 1986, I think. The belay bolts we installed were below the OW, maybe 25 feet or so above the roof. I belayed Jim Thurmond from a tree at the top of the route. No bolts placed up there. That was the first year Jim, Alan Carrier, and I began using bolts. Figuring everything out on our own, we started out at the hardware store, buying the 3/8" x 2 1/4" All Anchors. They're a hollow sleeve bolt through which you drive a nail to expand the inner bolt end. We used a hand drill. In soft sandstone (especially Fountain Bluff), it's nearly impossible to drill a clean hole with 90-degree outer edges. Hence, the belay bolts we installed we're crap. When I weighted one of them to check it out, it noticeably shifted. We we're fully intending to bail off the route, as we had no usable off-width gear. Jim did have one of those CMI I-Beams, but it was the wrong length. We were climbing the route on-sight and were hoping to discover small gear opportunities within the OW, like AppleJack Crack at Jackson Falls. We brought the bolt kit for "just in case" bailing. We really didn't go up there intending to make a bolted route. Anyway, I distinctly remember telling Jim, "Dude, ain't no way I'm bailing off these bolts. I'd rather take my chances bolting my way up the OW". His reply was, "Your lead". In effect, in my head, I was simply bailing up the route to get off of it. So now 20 years later, yeah, I'd probably use screamers on those things.
healyje wrote:
..."but it's kind of a one-hit-wonder in the middle of nowhere so I can't imagine anyone bothering. If you find yourself addicted to roofs you should definitely make the trip though..."
I totally agree, Joe.
healyje wrote:
"I'm not sure why Eric left it out of the guidebook but I'm sure he has his reasons. I think he has done way more for SoIll climbing than anyone else and deserves way more credit than he ever looks for or receives. But like most of us, he's doing it because he it's what he loves doing."
Joe, you're too kind. Thanks.
I left it out because for the first two editions of my guidebook that included it, I think maybe one party went to Fountain Bluff to repeat the route, and they bailed from below the roof. Like you said, "it's kind of a one-hit-wonder in the middle of nowhere so I can't imagine anyone bothering."
Darnell wrote:
"Joe, do you have Jeff Frizell's (Sp?) e-mail, I met him at JF last year, and he was interested in doing a wall in Yos. Shoot me an e-mail if you have contact info, also on another note"
Email me if you want Frizzell's email.
Eric
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2006 - 09:38pm PT
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Darnell,
I bet that is another story, bummer we missed you guys at the reunion. I'll check with Stephane on the Zenith gear but I suspect he'd like to have it, thanks again for the offer. And to your question, no, we (or at least I) didn't put up any routes in LGC or HC. As I said we were pretty focused at GC and while it may seem a very few routes, it took a concentrated effort to mold ourselves to and find our way through them. And generally, once we got locked on one, going somewhere else was out of the question. When we did it was usually Eldo versus anywhere local. We did a few side local trips to JF, JH, BSS, WB, GoG, and Stoneface but we mostly remained rabidly attached to GC until we left town.
As for other stories, hmmm, well, I think the most untold story of all these days is about Jim Tangen-Foster's role and contribution to SoIll climbing. I happened to have ended up with the "first" send of a lot of routes but that was just as often as not by comping on some breakthrough of Jim's and it was always related to me watching him work a route. Which one of us finally "got it" was pretty much a coin toss that just happen to fall my way more often than not as much by chance as I certainly wasn't "the better climber" by any means. But that combined with some of my off-rock exploits and Tim Toula's GC write up in Rock'N'Road resulted to some extent of folks not really understanding just how central Jim was to the whole SoIll experience during that period.
To be completely honest, until Jim came on the scene I really didn't have a clue what actually might even be possible. He had an athletic background and had done gymnastics and rings just before arriving at SIU whereas I had no history of physicality other than always climbing trees as a kid and working in a gunmount in Vietnam. Where I had no idea what I or anyone else might possibly accomplish, Jim did, and was clearly going to go for it. At the point we met I was just starting to realize I was plateau'd in a self-defined purgatory of mediocre climbing. The first time I saw him climb was an absolute lightening-strike revelation of the possible - I went straight home and told my girlfriend that 'if I could teach him to actually use his feet once in awhile he'd be an animal'. Well, he already was an animal and didn't need much teaching from me other than showing him leading and pointing him at more interesting stuff. In turn he taught me everything I know about what it means to really climb - to simply get on the rock without hesitation, to stay focused, to remain calm without fear, and to keep moving.
Our build and style were similar enough that we could use each other as a yardstick and metric while belaying one another. Watching each other work a problem let the other see what was possible, what was and wasn't going to work, and how to narrow things down or try a different approach on our turn. Jim is also completely fearless, incredibly strong, has phenomenal instincts, and never chokes. That is and was a dramatic contrast to me; my strengths are unpredictable and come in bursts, I relentlessly overthink sh#t to the point of fear, and choke with remarkable frequency. But I was always very good at seeing patterns, though, and when I could [finally] "see" a route's solution I could often, fanatically, pull it all together for just long enough to see it through. Ninety five percent of the time I'm still only a "good" climber - Jim on the otherhand is and has been the real deal his whole life. All the times I've been better than simply good Jim, or someone just like him, has always been on the other end of the rope and it is a synergy I've experienced only rarely since.
In the past I've told the story about how a string of twelve well-orchestrated acid trips on successive third days was what led to the breakthrough in my climbing - to finally figuring I was actually jumping off routes at my emotional limit rather than falling off them at my physical limit - and that was true. But it should also be told it was simply a journey to find in myself what I saw on display in Jim's climbing everytime we went out. I wouldn't have even known it was there to look for if it weren't for him. Jim's is the real story of the constant progression of SoIll climbing during that time punctuated with me surfing off his wake whenever I could pull it together for a burst. He still climbs constant circles around me to this day trailing that same damn inspiration which I try to latch on to for dear life whenever I can now. So anytime you see my name associated with an SoIll FA it should have Jim's name as well and if it doesn't, it's a mistake and just be aware it's Jim's steady shoulders I stood on the entire time regardless. He owns all of those FA's every bit as much as me.
Also, Doug Drewes played a similar though more infectious and undisciplined influence on my climbing from my beginnings until Jim arrived on the scene. Doug was basically a wildman who would throw himself at anything and it was amazing what he'd come up with. He'd also drag us all on [onsight] "root digger" excursions all over the park. You'd follow him up something until he stalled out and then when you finally convinced him you couldn't go back down he'd top out through a some heinously thick carpet of moss that rolled over the edge. It was always the same remorseless deal - one arm thrown over the lip to your armpit, fingers clawing for tenuous roots, the other hand then following stranding you like Wily Coyote scratching over an edge with no option but dragging your belly and thighs directly over the lip in a ungainly maneuver of pure fear. On standing up you'd be slimed solid green from your pits to knees, waving muddy hands, and screaming at Doug , "What the f#ck was that...?!?!, What the f#ck was that...?!?!" You'd swear never again -- but then this is Doug we're talking about...
As a side note, both Doug and Jim are also great guitarists and mucisians and that relationsip also broadly influenced events and the feel of the those times. All in all it was the kind of run that just unfolds and you don't really understand or value the magic of it all until decades later. There's no way to recreate those days and I wouldn't care to try; fortunately we're both still alive and climbing and have managed to reconnect after a lot of years which is something not many folks our age get another shot at. It's an opportunity I almost can't believe and won't relinquish again easily ...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
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Eric,
My pleasure, you're the one putting in the work - people need to understand it wasn't a one-shot deal that you did, but constant and steady work year in year out that continues to this day. I can tell it's all so "established" and "socialized" now like any other major areas that folks don't really understand how that came to be or what it takes to keep it the way it is. I for one am grateful for the the remarkable restraint and vision you and you crew showed in developing Jackson Falls. Would I have preferred it stayed wild? Sure, but that wasn't an option and you guys developed it with remarkable respect for what was there. My hat's off to you all and many thanks for continuing to do such a quality job out there.
As for Leapfrog, I was trying to say, albiet badly, that as a "one-hit-wonder" I wouldn't bother going out there just to pull the bolts. But I do think it is a remarkable climb and my personal vote would be to keep it in the guidebook. I say that because it's one of the few fantastic roofs in an [open] outlying area for anyone afflicted with the horizontal disease. It may be a "one-hit-wonder", but it's still a wonder no hardman or woman should miss out on during an extended stay down that way. It really is a seminal part of how "real" and unexpected SoIll can be.
And I couldn't tell from your description if you and Jim were just exiting or did you actually [free] climb it? Or did you exit/rig and then send it? How did it all go? Hanging from those cheesy bolts sounds absolutely horrifying. Also, I just talked with Jim and I believe he found the CMI IBeam was the wrong length as well so just fired it off sans gear. But we both remember being totally confident about it and it being a completely fun romp until we topped out and got marooned in the dark. We definitely didn't establish an intermediate belay. I think a big part of the reason we were so confident was that on figuring the roof, turn, and pro out on the second trip, we had to wait for a third trip out to send it. Between the time we left and got back to it we put up some steep things out at GC and were generally just non-stop psyched with anticpation about getting back on it. I'd still highly recommend it. Just take some big cams, don't be intimidated, and do it in one pitch versus trying to break it up.
Again, thanks for all your work and like I said, I will get around to writing up some history with Jim and Doug sometime this year and get it to you - hopefully in person...
[ Edit: The other draw for going down there was to stop in this fantastic small, old log cabin resturaunt called "Ma Hales" which had an all you can eat meal like the lodge only way better. They had it all piled up on an old wood stove and it made going down by Grand Tower an entirely different experience than it would be today. Ma ran the place from '39 until sometime in the '70s and is where the idea for the food in the lodge came from. ]
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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Jan 31, 2006 - 11:17pm PT
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This is part of an email Jim Thurmand sent to me, he had some kind of trouble posting on this thread so that's why I am posting it.
"I wish those guy's could tell us what they used because all I think they brought where Big Brass Balls.If there is not some confusion of the line we are all disscussing I would rank that route as one of the hardest and dangerous routes ever done. I am baffeled that they dont express this and only mention the first pitch.They should be writing novels about that OW experience. The pitch out the roof is gorgeous but then it gets bold for the leader and the belayer.. If you fall on lead up in that OW you will rip the belay unless you belay immediatly past the lip of the first route using two #3Camelots in a small alcoveish stance.It also avoids serious rope drag. Then the leader would take around 150+ foot fall you might not deck but you would think you were.
I saw much evidence of climbers pulling the roof and going up and left under the Off Width, old bolts and an ancient pin marked the way. At one time it must have been an aid line. There was no evidence to us anyone had ever done the Off Width . Loose rocks that tumbeled out with a touch around any key feature also convinced us off our FA.
Over the years many a bad ass has backed off it. None have topped out all have bailed.Its a testament its only been climbed 4 times I guess free and I did 3 of them.Jim and Joe have my deepest respect and admiration for surviving that day they tagged the FA . They are "Bushido" in my book.Casual Horrors is a better name for the route than Leap Frog because it is more discriptive. First 511 is "Casual" the second is full of "Horrors".If some one replaced Erics bolt ladder with good bolts there would be no better route in Illinois in my book."
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 31, 2006 - 11:38pm PT
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Wow. Hmmm. I love and respect Jim Thurmond to death and he along with Jim Tangen-Foster are the two boldest climbers I know so to be honest I'm a bit surprised by his perceptions of the whole affair. The memories Jim and I have aren't at all like that, but then we absolutely loved roofs. And we ran it as one pitch and never felt like there was any problem with rope drag and neither of us ever felt at risk belaying. I vaguely remember the roof protecting just fine with hexes and (I think) Titons. Not sure how to respond to Jim's comment about "loose blocks that tumbled out" but we definitely did the OW above and while I've never asked Jim, and can't remember clearly myself, I don't do OW's (I even layback Supremacy Crack in Eldo) so even overhanging I would likely have done some perverse sort of layback for most of it and I'd suspect Jim would have done the same. Again, not entirely sure how it all went down, but we were completely confident, at ease, and having a good time on it until after we topped out; I don't know what we were smoking at the time but it no doubt kept us calm and "casual" because the only "horrors" we experienced were roaming around disoriented in the pitch black hell on top afterwards. Go figure. Also, there were no pins or bolts of any kind on it when we did it - or at least we never saw any on the three trips out it took us to do it. Then again, we were undoubtably moving fast after turning the lip and in no position to be looking around. And given that first generation of guys were big into aid and they went everywhere it's quite possible we just didn't notice in the push.
We both do agree with Jim Thurmond that it's a bold and outstanding climb that Eric should consider putting back in the next edition. As I said, if you live down there for a stretch and are strong you really owe it to yourself to go check it out before you leave. Hell someone should go out there, send it, and get some good shots of it all for us. Take some big cams, skip the intermediate belay, and just send it with the second taking something minimal to jug the line if they come off it. Not sure if this is just a case of complete naivete and enthusiasm on our part or possibly an example of reality matching the concerns or expectations of later parties (though hard to imagine that with Jim Thurmond or Eric who I know only expect one outcome when they get on a climb...)
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tangen_foster
Trad climber
Hudson, Wisconsin
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Here's what I remember about Leap Frog. Joe laced up the roof to the lip so that it was bombproof. He's good at that. I lead the roof, turned it, and climbed to the top. It was getting dark, and we had friends waiting for us below. I didn't set up an intermediate belay. And I sure as hell didn't spend much time routefinding. That's Joe's department. I don't recall the OW, but I'm sure I didn't see or clip any pins or bolts. If I had, I would have clipped em. I don't recall loose rock. I don't recall rope drag. I don't recall placing any protection. It would not be unusual for me to run out a 5.11 layback. I've run it out before facing long falls. If this OW could be laybacked, and apparently it can, then, in all liklihood, Joe and I did what came natural to us after climbing every day for the past year or so on overhanging 5.11 and 5.12 laybacks in and around Giant City. On the other hand, if there was an easier way to the top that didn't involve me placing any pro (I hated doing that back then), I might have bailed that way. Either way, we certainly topped out, groped around in the dark, and somehow rapped down. The thing I remember most is how pissed our friends were by our lateness. Damn, we'll all just have to meet up at Fountain Bluff and give it a go again. I'd be up for it. On the other hand, maybe we could all just drink beer and gape at pictures of this damn thing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Thanks Jim for kicking in what you remember...
After talking with Jim about the whole fandango this afternoon some of it started coming back. The two people in the car that Jim is referring to were Doug Drewes and Cindy Tranovich. We had gotten down there late, were going to go eat something afterwards, and had told those guys "we're just going to go run up there and check it out again and we'll be back down [in no time]". Well, Jim got us up there fast but good pro is really almost a separate and engrossing form of entertainment for me and I f#cked around longer than I probably should have bombing the belay and lacing the roof up. It took time to rig so that none of the [all passive] pieces, particularly the ones out at the lip, could be dislodged by the rope as it went on up past the turn in the roof. And that's also why the belay was never a question nor was the rope drag. I also had to [free] reverse the roof to get at least most of the way back to the belay and all that rigamarole just took way too much time.
As was no doubt the case when these sort of events transpired, and while belaying me, Jim was probably tapping his foot, burning a roach, watching the sun go down, and not so subtly hinting I should just get the f#ck on with it as he can get pretty antsy when he feels dicking around with pro is getting in the way of climbing. As for the OW above - trust us, if we saw pins, bolts, or anyway up that sucker without going up the crack we would have done it. And Jim would have clipped any type of shite mank no matter how dubious with at least one biner if he'd run across any, but we didn't - we did the OW. And we both agree - we don't do OW's, we layback them. I think we pretty much have no doubt between us that's what we both did and if I for one had stopped to sink a jam I never would have gotten out of it and the inside of the crack would be soaked in blood.
And, hell, even last year when we did Epinephrine in Red Rocks Jim was running that puppy out again and again. That's where the gymnastics and rings headset comes in and he still likes to just climb with a minimum amount of distraction. To be honest, I thought in all the intervening years I didn't climb with him he might have learned to better integrate placing pro into his climbing a bit more. Most folks so afflicted would have just switched to sport climbing, but not Jim. Turns out instead he just got his head around runouts and has also been soloing at a very high level for decades. Pretty much the antithesis of me and he was just as surprised decades later to find I was still doddling along having way too much fun finding new and peculiar ways to place pro.
And here's another old story that stands as testimant to Jim's (to me anyway) almost casual boldness and explains why the Fountain Bluff route went down like it did. For awhile Jim and Cindy lived in Boulder and I was teaching over at Colorado Mountain College in Glenwood Springs. Prior to and during that year Jim had been hanging out with Charlie Fowler and they had done the Diamond together. Well, one weekend in Eldo when as Charlie headed off to solo something he suggested Jim and Cindy give Metamorphisis on the Wind Tower a whirl. I arrived from Glenwood Springs and made my way up to them just as Jim was heading up the crux pitch. Unfortunately for Jim the route went right around a small roof, but even run out forty feet he did what anyone from Giant City would do - he headed left and turned the roof. That unfortunately marooned him above the roof on steep face climbing, no pro, and nowhere to go. He tried reversing the roof twice and then tried going up about ten feet or so and then finally just turned sideways, calmly pushed off, and launched. With rope stretch he took a 110' ride ending up fifteen feet short of a large broad ledge. With all the rope stretch he later said it was the softest fall he ever taken and the only damage he suffered was scratching his thumb on the wall as the stretch recoiled him back upwards. The only longer falls I'd witnessed up to then was Davey Brashears blithely taking two nasty and bloody 60 footers on an FA attempt of the last pitch of Rain on the Bastille (another story altogether). Jim's fall was almost double those and it was all matter-of-fact and business-as-usual for him before and after the fall. Also, as a side note, this was back in the day and Cindy was giving him a hip belay from a hanging stance when he took that ride...
My only other comment/observation/question on the matter would be directed at Jim Thurmond and Eric - and don't take this the wrong way as we weren't around. But it has occured to me that one possible explaination for the disparity in our perceptions might be along the lines of the following. You guys had all outgrown Giant City and had moved on to Drapers and JF for years and one observation I had this past October was, particularly at JF, that after GC your climbing obviously evolved to very, very high levels, but also in a direction with some fairly subtle differences from what went on in GC. You guys got very good at [steep] face climbing while still retaining the ability to apply GC-type skills wherever you needed. And I know Jim Thurmond, you in particular already had advanced jamming skills and I supsect Eric may have developed them as well at Drapers and elsewhere.
So here is my thesis - tell me what you think - I'm wondering, and don't know, if you guys didn't evolve away from extreme and sustained [GC] laybacking to the point where you actually took one look at the Leap Frog/Casual Horrors OW and instantly treated it as an OW to be jammed? Jim and I would never ever, and I mean never, actually try to OW an OW - we'd layback it or die trying. And that's what we did out there and why it didn't seem intimidating to us as that was pretty much what we were all about - stiff, sustained, overhanging laybacking. I know I would have walked away from it all if on turning the roof I thought for a second I'd have to jam anything because I couldn't jam my way out of a paper bag back then. Laybacking is also very fast and explains why Jim wouldn't have been inclined to f*#k around with pro. So that's my theory anyway - let me know what you think, but I can't come up with any other reason for the gap between our two sets of perceptions as we certainly weren't "better" climbers when we were on it than you guys were a decade later...
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tangen_foster
Trad climber
Hudson, Wisconsin
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"So that's my theory anyway - let me know what you think, but I can't come up with any other reason for the gap between our two sets of perceptions as we certainly weren't "better" climbers when we were on it than you guys were a decade later..."
Speak for yourself, Joe. I am (still) the walrus. But not for the rope jamming on the Metamorphisis fall, a dead walrus.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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So let me get this straight, you took a 110 ft. fall, and it would have further but the rope jammed in a crack? On a hip belay?
Crikey!!
Jim T. once sandbaged me on some 5.9R on Wind tower, or was it whales tale? I think the name of the climb was Tagger.
Anyway I was a new climber and Jim say's yea it's only 5.9, So I get up there, knowing nothing about oppisiton placements, I looked down right before the crux and saw that most of my placement's had fallen out.
I sat below the roof for awhile, it was getting dark, Jim was away's off giving me beta and laughing at me, as he could do all the moves in his sleep,I Pulled the roof, and lived another day.
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Darnell
Big Wall climber
Chicago
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another e mail from Jimmy Thurmond
" I just cant wait to see what history says about the route.So far in 30+ years it has had 4 ascents. You cant really aid it.It's climb or fly. The bolts that are there could have been taken out by hand the day they where placed , [Button heads in sand stone really]. Healy ya'll did not even have those.
Ok.... dont admit it, I'll say it....... you were such bad asses it didn't seem like such a big deal.True it is our own little Naked Edge, or piece of Astroman and I love it.For it is raw.
BUT!
Nobody is gonna post any ascents of that route..........................ever.
In fact I'll put a $50 dollar bounty on it."
Hmmmm, $50 don't mean sh#t to me, but ifin you were to double dog dare me, well..........
I am suposed to be in So. Il. right now, climbing with the Chancler bro's and Matt, but it's raining.
I might have to go out there this spring and give casual horrors a go.
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