Old Climber Friend Needs Advice w/ Prescrip Sleep Meds Dex

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ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 22, 2011 - 02:11pm PT

Hi All,

Posting under an assumed name, but many of you know me from JT, etc from the late 70’s., early 80’s. Not ready to go public- but looking for advice/ support.

Anybody have experience w/ detox from prescription sleep or anxiety meds?

Here’s my 411. Was taking Ambien for the last year or so. I felt it better than slugging down a lot of booze for sleep, which we all do sometimes? But Ambien stopped doing it for me back around Thanksgiving. I also (unknowingly) was coming down with whooping cough, so started getting sick. My doc said you’re going nuts- see a Shrink if you want stronger sleep meds. So early December started on Xanax and Celexa/ Citalopram (modern day Prozac) for anxiety, and for sleep- Trazladone plus Restoril.

Sleep did not really improve so the Shrink gave me Lunesta.

So I said screw the Shrink, got a new General Practitioner Doc. He said stop the Xanax, and Celexa/ Citalopram. Done.

New Doc had me try Ambien CR. Which maybe worked but I wanted more sleep so right now taking an old school med called Halcion. Which still only gives me 5 hours of sleep. And is pretty strong stuff. So am starting to lower dose on the Trazladone – 100 mg to 75 mg, then 50 and then off. Then will try same thing w/ Halcion until I am off meds.

So who has experience with detox from sleep or anxiety meds?

PM me if you don’t want to take this public.

Thanks!!!

ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2011 - 02:50pm PT

Dean- I PM'd you.

Yes- I think I have some cold turkey and exercise days in my future.

John Moosie

climber

Beautiful California

Jan 22, 2011 - 03:00pm PT

ugh.. do I ever know. Its been awhile, so I will probably leave out some of the things I learned about these type meds, but I did go through the mill with them.

First off, meds have lots of side affects and for some people are a major pain in the rear. Once you realize this, life can get very difficult for a time, as now there are no easy solutions. Western medicine has conditioned people to expect a med to solve their problem. Western medicine is good at the short term fixes, like antibiotics to cure infections, but it is less affective at long term problems like sleep difficulties, anxiety and depression, which were my problems. Because we have been conditioned to expect an easy solution, you will have to work at your mindset and your determination to solve this problem. The reason is that it can slow your progress towards better sleep if you obsess over the problems with meds. I did and it took me a long time to overcome it. Its better to just accept that they don't work for you, and move on to finding things that do.

There are lots of other things to try that can help with these type problems. I now have little to no problem with anxiety and I sleep much better. I wrote a little about the things I that helped me on this thread..

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1150948&tn=0

Here is my post from that thread..

I don't know about sleep apnea, but have had trouble getting to sleep.

I stopped caffeine. Stopped watching TV later at night. Stopped going online later at night. Got some moderate exercise everyday. Started relaxation type mediation. But the thing that helped the most was taking afternoon naps. Sometimes an hour or two. What I discovered was that I was over tired and the naps caused me to sleep better that night.

Then I stayed current on my rest and that went a long way to helping. No more late nights, except rarely once I got the problem under control.

I also learned to relax even though I wasn't getting to sleep. I realized that resting was still helpful and worrying about not sleeping did no good.

The nap thing was the biggest help though. If I am too tired, I tend to do this thing where I start to drop off, then wake suddenly gasping for air.

Acupuncture also helped me.

Edit: Some of the best sleep I have gotten was when I was doing yoga regularly. But I suck at doing it on my own, so need a class that I can attend. Also, try going to bed earlier then you usually do. One or two hours earlier.

One key that helps with the transition is to get over the belief that you really need a lot of deep sleep to be okay. Someone here on the taco helped me accept that when they talked about how little sleep they got when climbing big walls and how they came to be able to function by realizing that just closing ones eyes and resting was useful. I realize that when you have a long term problem, that isn't going to completely solve the problem, but it can help to not stress so much by not obsessing on the problem, which tends to exacerbate the problem. Good sleep does help, but so does a healthy mindset, a balanced diet, and regular exercise. Anyone of these can mess with both your mental stability and your ability to get to sleep.

If you have the funds, I would try acupuncture. Plus you need to look at how you handle stress. I use to drink and drug my stress away. That worked for a few years, but then stopped working and actually started making the problem worse. Some people here will tell you that drugs helped them, so it is an individual thing. My personal belief is that one day they will discover that the drugs don't work, but that is another story. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to try.

Things can get better.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber

New York, NY

Jan 22, 2011 - 03:18pm PT

Good luck on the work. I don't know if it was already mentioned, in the "causes"(of sleeplessness) subject, but if there is an underlying stress that has your head spinning and caused the restlessness in the first place, that's something to look at.

There are so many areas within people's life that can cause stress - a loved one's illness or dysfunction, work pressure, pressures to support a dependent or lifestyle, financial burdens, pressure to conform, secrets within our lives... any number of things. One way out body tells us it ain't happy is by not being able to sleep.

While acknowledging a stressor in life isn't so much going to help with the detox period, in the long run, it needs to be addressed or else your body is just going to "leak", as an old friend used to say, in some other way.

The Lisa

Trad climber

Da Bronx, NY

Jan 22, 2011 - 04:41pm PT

I have no advice, alas, but I do offer support. Not being able to sleep seems a terrible burden, on top of whatever is causing the sleepless nights in the first place.
I do not fall asleep so much as fall unconscious because I am so pooped at the end of every day from the day job plus lots of exercise. If I get less than 6 hours a night I am a zombie the next day. I could not imagine how I would function if I was not getting enough rest every night.
Looks like folks here on ST have been through it and are giving you good advice. I do hope the situation improves for you.
Oddly enough (or perhaps not so odd), learning to lead climb helped me deal with stress in the rest of my life.

MH2

climber

Jan 22, 2011 - 06:17pm PT

I had one brief memorable bout of insomnia back in grad school. I would lie down to sleep but become extremely wide awake instead. It wasn't just thoughts running around in my head. It felt like a physical force, as if I'd just had several cups of coffee, pushing me back to alertness. Mom sent me a couple pills and I tried them for maybe 3 nights and they worked and that was the end of it.

Today I work as a registered nurse in a nursing home. Many of our residents have anxiety and sleeping problems, probably just among those things that naturally become more likely with aging.

Our most commonly prescribed sleeping pill we call Zopiclone, a version of your Lunesta. It seems safe to me and when we stop it or hold off giving it, I don't see people suddenly unable to sleep (I work nights).

I agree with John, and we were told in school also, that medications are best used for temporary problems like a bacterial infection or pain from an injury. Be very careful about the pros and cons of any pill you find yourself taking every day. There are a lot of medications that get prescribed these days whose purpose is to improve your odds of avoiding some major threat like heart attack or stroke. Too often the change in those odds is not as great as the advertising leads people to believe, and if you get prescribed more than just a couple such daily preventatives they can interact and the chances of side effects go way up. That is getting away from your question unless you are on other pills, though.

I hope you find help that works for you. What works or doesn't work for other folks is useful, but when it comes to sleep a lot depends on your personal particular requirements to get through the days. Not asking, just allowing that people are different.

When my colleagues at work ask, "Can't you give so-and-so something to make them sleep?", I have to consider that if I sedate them (the resident though giving the co-worker something is tempting) the resident could take a fall and maybe break a hip. I may be wrong, but as far as I know not sleeping doesn't kill people. Not right away at least. My own sleep is completely messed up from years of night shifts and lack of sleep probably will kill me, eventually, but that's okay because I'm not in a hurry.

edit:
Anxiety is a much bigger issue and all I'd say about that is that the meds for that really scare me.

MH2

climber

Jan 22, 2011 - 07:40pm PT

Yes, usually best to cut a dose in half for awhile and then half of that again before stopping.

Yes, go with the physician's orders.

Yes, seroquel is our current wonder drug for lots of behavior problems.

ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2011 - 07:45pm PT

Base- thanks. I have a climber/ doctor friend who recently mentioned Seroquel. He said it was the only thing he thought worked (and he’d tried them all….

I know my core issue is anxiety (Happiegrrrl was right). Money. My wife's multiple surgeries. Some serious business stress in the last few months. Being a caregiver and having no time for myself/ no exercise. Being older. Lack of spiritual path. My coming to terms with it all. My wife told a few minutes ago her diagnosis of me was depression (she'd been depressed for many a year due to me, her, us, life...

I am about 10 days off the Xanax and 3 weeks off the Citalopram cold-turkey. But not sure if I will cold turkey the other 2- like you say- Benzo withdrawal can cause convulsions.

It seemed all the sleep meds had taken away my ability to even nap on my own. So today was a minor breakthrough in that I napped a tad this afternoon. Not good for insomnia? But good for my battered psyche.

And thanks to a couple of my ST friends (Tar, Trad) who I can talk to .. .. trying to get over this hump and on the good side of it all. Versus- -- well--- we watched Jeff Batten and that is not my path.

Also- herbal- diet- any other insight from all? I am learning about sleep hygiene- going to bed every night at the same time, eat a few hour prior to sleep…

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 22, 2011 - 07:59pm PT

Exercise for sleep and meditation for anxiety.

WBraun

climber

Jan 22, 2011 - 08:05pm PT

Those who engage their senses in very troublesome and extensive work, suffer insomnia at night because their intelligence constantly breaks their sleep with various mental speculations.

ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 22, 2011 - 08:14pm PT

Werner is so spot on. I have work dreams and nightmares ALL the time. Or did until I got sleepless..

SCseagoat

Trad climber

Santa Cruz

Jan 22, 2011 - 08:22pm PT

If there are restorative yoga classes in your area I have found them wonderful. I am currently in chemo for ovarian cancer so my anxiety totally kicks in when I lay down to go to sleep. Because I am a toxic waste dump I tried to avoid other meds and stumbled on restorative yoga classes. I live in Santa Cruz so, of course, they were easy to find. Gentle Yoga classes are another option. They showed us some rolling postures that are supposed to help with sleep. Good luck, Susan

bmacd

Social climber

100% Canadian

Jan 22, 2011 - 08:59pm PT

Was on venlafaxine. 2007- 2008 made for Bad times …

Extensive exercise is an essential replacement. Meditation solved insomnia for me when drugs couldn't. Now I take a few hits of melatonin at bedtime.

The drug route is always going to cause other unintended consequences, look into meditation and serious quantities of exercise. Ensure good nutrition too, I use liquid multi vitamins.

Glad thats all behind me, it's a hard pull when you are in the thick of it, but the only way out is going all natural.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Jan 22, 2011 - 09:05pm PT

Those who engage their senses in very troublesome and extensive work, suffer insomnia at night because their intelligence constantly breaks their sleep with various mental speculations

The work can just be complex versus troublesome and I think the mind just can't put it down or let go. Works for climbing - sucks for work and life.

altelis

Mountain climber

Jan 22, 2011 - 11:15pm PT

As far as I can tell at this point in my education (1/2 way through med school, so take that with a major grain of salt)....Riley, Louis and Rok are all wrong and all right.

Serotonin discontinuation syndrome is really only an issue with SSRI's of short half-lives. Many (most?) of the SSRI's commonly prescribed have long half-lives, making weaning unnecessary. There are certainly still SSRI's used with short half-lives, and these do need to be weaned.

Again, my clinical experience is still pretty small, but this is what I remember (at least from my desk in the classroom)....

ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2011 - 12:17am PT

I love Super Topo.

Lois is correct in stating "....In fact, FYI, it take approximately 4-6 weeks before they (SSRI's) even take effect at the synapses ..". I had only been on them for perhaps 3 weeks before the General Practitioner doc said stop 'em . So the mood enhancing effects never took.

But now the mood swings from the insomnia and bout with meds/ reduction of meds really sucks. Today I hit the errands hard, then mid-day while out and about I feel like I am going to have a coronary... dizzy, weak, chest tightness... weak.. maybe some low blood sugar .. whilst after a nap and some food, I even went for a wee walk / jog/ walk. rather be climbing tho..

ST Friend in Need

climber

Our Shared Experiences

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 23, 2011 - 12:28am PT

Lois- Anxiety builds in my chest for sure. But part of this is lack of sleep taking me to the Bad Blues around 2PM.. had it hit hard two - three days in a row now. Part of it also having poison in my system. I can feel the artificial affect on my brain and body. And it sucks to think it will take a week or too to wean off the Trazladone and then a another couple weeks for the Halcion?

I wanted to cold turkey Ambien 7 weeks ago before I started all this sh*it but decided I did not have the will power and went down the dark side instead.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, CA

Jan 23, 2011 - 12:32am PT

Listen to Dean!!!

Also consider what Werner says. An active mind should not be wasted. If your head is not tired, go out back and look at stars.

Do not use pharmaceutical drugs to go to sleep. Stay away.