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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 27, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I've been reading in the online news about this web site.
Is this group Wikileaks really as bad as they are making it to be and/or
is the info dangerous?
I know nothing about them and does anyone have a better understanding about them?
Thanks in advance .....
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Nov 27, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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The wiki-guy is wanted in Sweden for rape and sexual molestation:
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/46537/
Kind of cool seeing him squirm like a weasel when the secrets being exposed are his secrets.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 27, 2010 - 08:48pm PT
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So, we've got Crowley hinting that wikileaks is a good thing, and Chaz hinting that it's a bad thing. But neither actually giving a personal opinion.
Are you wiser now?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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There are two issues Werner: the person who takes the documents and the person who is publishing them. All of the documents are given to Wikileaks by someone with access, someone who steals the documents from some government agency. That person is breaking a security agreement with the government and may be breaking a law. The second issue is the right of someone to publish the information which is protected under the US constitution if it is published under US jurisdiction.
If a bank employee took your personal electronic banking information and gave to someone one else who published it, everyone would agree that both acts were wrong. When it is an employee of the US government stealing the information and Wikileaks publishing it is not so clear. If the US government finds out who took the information, they go after them.
In the Pentagon Papers case—not an exact parallel but with half of the transaction the same, the Supreme Court ruled that NY Times and the Washington Post could publish the classified information under First Amendment rights. Daniel Ellsberg, on the other hand, was charged under the Espionage Act of 1917. The case was thrown out of court on the basis of misconduct by the prosecutors working for the Nixon Whitehouse. I have never read any legal analysis of the chances of Ellsberg being found guilty if were not for the incompetence of Nixon's staff.
I don't know what International Rights the US has to go after Wikileaks. I would guess not much. Whether you think this is right or wrong probably depends on which side of the barricade you are on. I was opposed to the Vietnam War so I was rooting for Daniel Ellsberg. In the current instance, I don’t like that our soldiers and contacts in around the world are put into danger.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:24pm PT
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There are two issues... In the first issue, the military personnel who took the documents - should be tried, and if found guilty hung or shot. In the second issue, the individual who received the documents had the right to publish what he was given.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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A lot of the opinions aired about wikileaks are based in patriotism. Suppose that wikileaks illegally obtained a bunch of al Qeada documents. Or North Korean documents, or Chinese documents. Documents which proved some evil anti-US intent on the part of a-Q, NK, or China. Then all the US patriots would be jumping for joy, hollering about the importance of keeping the internet free, and demanding that whoever published those documents be protected from whatever a-Q, NK, or China wanted to do to them. Meanwhile, the outfit from whom the documents were obtained would be crying foul, and demanding that wikileaks be shut down, and that whoever stole the documents be prosecuted.
Put the shoe on the other foot, and... Yup, the US patriots are crying foul, while the rest of the world nods its head and says that a free internet is a Good Thing.
It is a perfect example of the morality of convenience.
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2010 - 09:30pm PT
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Hmmmmmmm ???
There must be a root reason for wikileaks.
What really is their aim?
Just plain splattering documents onto the WWW web with no goal behind them doesn't strike me as what their real aim is for.
They have some kind of agenda?
I don't know where to though although I can guess or it's anyone guess?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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Legalities aside, what caught my attention is information in the documents could put soldiers at risk. This off of NPR, so it's not right-wing paranoia.
But the document themselves are characterized as emails from squads on the ground, like daily reports. So the problem is not so much that they contain information contrary to the Official Version -- big deal on that.
No the problem might be that just their datelines, or incidental info about the troops could end up pinpointing them and maybe drawing in fire on a bunch of guys squatting out in the desert in harms way.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 27, 2010 - 09:49pm PT
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Doug, there is a new release coming up:
POLITICO 44
The Obama administration is preparing for a leak of hundreds of thousands of classified documents from the whistleblower Web site WikiLeaks that are expected to include diplomatic communiqués between U.S. officials about key allies and other information that could undercut military operations and derail fragile diplomatic relations.
Administration officials have been scrambling over the weekend to reach out to allies and give them a heads up about what the documents are likely to contain. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and other top diplomatic officials have called leaders in Germany, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Great Britain, France and Afghanistan to mitigate the fallout from the release of what would be the largest batch of documents the website has released thus far.
As in the past with two other releases of documents, on U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, WikiLeaks was expected to release the documents through some of the same news outlets it has used before, including The New York Times, Germany’s Der Spiegel and Britain’s Guardian newspaper. Administration officials expected the release would come Sunday, POLITICO was told.
News reports over the weekend indicate this dump of documents – as many as 3 million and as few as 250,000 — will contain classified State Department cables that could run the gamut from embarrassing communiqués among U.S. diplomats about close allies to intelligence documents that could undermine counterterrorism operations in places like Yemen and Afghanistan.
NBC reported Friday that the leaking of diplomatic communications over the negotiation of the START nuclear treaty with Russia could be used by opponents of the treaty to undermine its ratification.
At the Pentagon, officials are finding themselves once again bracing for a release of classified documents they were unsuccessful at keeping under wraps. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told CNN for an interview set to air Sunday that the release of the documents sets a “very, very dangerous precedent." Mullen reiterated concerns about jeopardizing not only the lives of troops but individuals who have worked with the U.S. government.
“What I don’t think those who are in charge of Wikileaks understand is we live in a world where just a little bitty piece of information can be added to a network of information and really open up an understanding that just wasn’t there before,” Mullen told CNN. “I would hope that those who are responsible for this would, at some point in time, think about the responsibility that they have for lives that they’re exposing and the potential that’s there and stop leaking this information.”
Media reports from Ankara suggest that Washington aided the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, and that Turkey helped al Qaeda in Iraq. The Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that some of the U.S. documents contain “unflattering” assessments of some Russian officials.
They “touch on an enormous range of very sensitive foreign policy issues,” according to an e-mail written to the appropriate House and Senate panels by Elizabeth King, the Pentagon’s assistant secretary for legislative affairs. “We anticipate that the release could negatively impact U.S. foreign relations."
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WBraun
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 27, 2010 - 09:58pm PT
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Yes Roger
That's what I was seeing and Clinton is now making a big push worldwide warning govts. in anticipation of this latest info getting out.
The military stuff was generally uninteresting.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Nov 27, 2010 - 10:43pm PT
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Hooray for Julian!!!!!!
Keep embarrasing those in power--we need to take our
troops from their illegal occupation of two sovereign
countrys. Period.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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If wiki leaks is not treason than nothing ever is.
Well then, I guess nothing ever is. You should really do a little research on the letter of the law before you go posting uninformed opinion. It makes you look like a ranting buffoon.
Here's the constitutional definition of treason:
TREASON
This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.
The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death. By the same article of the Constitution, no person shall be convicted of treason, unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
Edit for skipt's response below:
You said wikileaks is treasonous. I posted the definition of treason. Apparently you have an agenda that is not rooted in rationality. Good luck with that.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:22pm PT
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Come, now, boys. Either give me a masterful touché or let's move on. We've got standards, here. "Drunk bastard" doesn't cut it.
.....
P.S. Hey, did you know the Hot Apple Pie tastes just as good made from whiskey as tuaca. Plus, it's way less expensive. Happy holidays!
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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http://blogtown.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2010/11/27/man-arrested-in-pioneer-square-bombing-plot
In this and other news links the public is told in detail how the FBI worked to provide dummy explosives and arrest this guy who wanted to bomb the US public.
How is that any different than how Wilileaks gives out insider information on how the FBI/CIA operates in any other operation? Seems funny to me to read the great detail on Drudge yesterday on how they set him up, almost like they are trying to sell the public on how real this event was - but they want to keep the same details about anything in Iraq a secret.
Wouldn't they want to keep it a secret about how they met and gave the guy fake bombs so that they could do it again, or do it in current situations they may be involved in? Didn't they just tip off any baddie currently trying to do the same thing? Or are they confident that there isn't any of that possibly happening right now in the USA?
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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Nov 27, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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I don't care what it is called... catching the guy and bragging to the world about how you did it are two different things, and people are more scared of what they don't know because their imaginations make up the possibilities (how the hell did they do that? I'm paranoid of everyone now) vs. a play-by-play account that leaves nothing to the imagination.
Those play-by-play stories make me think it is more like a story written to entertain the US public.
Guys with confidence don't tell how they got the girl, they just show up with her on their arm. The guys bragging about the girl are the ones you know are daydreaming.
If "deterrent measure" worked, Wikileaks would have nothing left to post.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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You're on a roll there, Love. Two quoteables in a row.
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:11am PT
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Even if it gives the enemy insight, the US is smart enough to know what to change and powerful enough with big bombs to still win this war.
After all, these guys are morons living in caves. Do they even have internet/wikileaks access?
Changing tactics to re-introduce the element of surprise can still be done - art of war stuff.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 28, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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In the Pentagon Papers case - not an exact parallel but with half of the transaction the same, the Supreme Court ruled that NY Times and the Washington Post could publish the classified information under First Amendment rights. Wasn't the issue there whether the government could prevent publication, the doctrine of prior restraint? That is, whether constitutional freedom of speech outweighed the government's right to declare some documents classified and outright prevent their publication, and that the news media could publish such documents, as long as it was prepared to risk the consequences?
The New York Times, which led the case, had an unfortunate previous record of being overly co-operative with the government when it came to critical reporting on wartime actions, and withholding information. As in Iraq II. But during the Pentagon Papers the NYT and the Sulzbergers got it exactly right, as did Kate Graham and the Washington Post during Watergate.
Bureaucrats and their masters just love to say even the most trivial documents are classified or top secret, to hide embarrassing things from the public, so that they feel important, and to CYA. The courts know that well, which is why the government never tried to prosecute the NYT for publishing the Pentagon Papers - it would have just further humiliated the government, and might have been difficult to find any jury willing to convict.
Sunshine is always the best disinfectant.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 28, 2010 - 01:19am PT
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How about reading what Wikileaks is all about from their point of view?
http://wikileaks.org/media/about.html
Many MSM writers agree that there is a real need for Wikileaks and financially support them.
"Could become as important a journalistic tool as the Freedom of Information Act." - Time Magazine
We need an honest outlet for information for the people that can be very embarrassing for all governments. Light, honesty, truth tends to keep governemnets on track and correct their misdeeds and abuse of power. It keeps them honest.
When the MSM is corporate owned, then Wikileaks and otheres like them fill this massive gap for honesty.
The charges of rape against the founder of Wikileaks Julian Assange, may be completely fabricated from what I have heard. The Pentagon certainly wants him taken down.
But even then, the idea and the need for Wikileaks will still continue.
US Government Behind Fake Charges of Rape Against Wikileaks Founder, Julian Assange in Sweden? Some Think So
With Wikileaks Founder, Julian Assange, Charged with Rape Then a Few Hours Later, Uncharged, Some Are Accusing the US Government of Subterfuge
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5709628/us_government_behind_fake_charges_of.html?cat=9
http://www.newsmild.com/swedish-prosecutor-wants-arrest-of-wikileaks-founder-for-rape
Wikileaks Founder Julian Assange Gets New Arrest Warrant By Joshua Philipp
Epoch Times Staff Created: Nov 25, 2010 Last Updated: Nov 26, 2010
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/46537/
Reporters Without Borders Blasts Wikileaks Says Wikileaks endangered 'future of the Internet as an information medium'
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/46537/
Clinton Reaches Out to Several Countries about Wikileaks, 11-27-10
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Clinton-Reaches-Out-to-Several-Countries-about-Wikileaks-110903729.html
Wow, read the comments following this VOA article. People weighing in on both sides . . .
Sweden Issues Warrant for WikiLeaks Founder
By JOHN F. BURNS and RAVI SOMAIYA
Published: November 18, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/world/europe/19assange.html
Apparently, consensual sex with 2 women, and the condom broke and she said stop. Now, how are you gonna prove that? I dunno.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 28, 2010 - 02:02am PT
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When my Wiki leaks I just tie a knot in it and then change my shorts.
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