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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Science gave us (not to mention Pakistan and soon Iran) the ability to develop an H bomb - In terms of natural facts, physical facts. But could it ever tell us we SHOULD drop the H bomb - in terms of moral facts?
So I just finished this book, The Moral Landscape, by Sam Harris. In it he makes the case (or tries to make the case) for a science of morality - in other words, he says it is time we thought about, and put into place, a science of morality.
-I suppose to be found on the library shelf, sometime in the future, right next to psychology and sociology and anthropology.
So it got me thinking. Does it have to be a "science" of morality? What about just a "study" of morality? Nowadays, is a "study" and a "science" synonymous, are they always the same thing? Couldn't we study morality, including even all the world's morals or moralities, without it being a science? and lastly couldn't we even actually develop a modern model (or two) of morality, again without it necessarily being a "science"?
So what do you - who give some thought to religion and science and philosophy - and of course morality, yours and others - reckon?
.....
I know, it is a TOUGH subject.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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So ...?
Morality? Science?
Why you people so stupid?
Make a "life bomb" so you do not die!
Instead you make bomb to speed up death and then give Nobel Peace prize .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2010 - 01:53pm PT
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Just askin', bro. Trying to pull through this particular crux is all.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 01:58pm PT
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Look up "Brahmastra bomb"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmastra
No one has the knowledge nor power to do that in this age of Kali Yuga anymore.
In this age people are very weak and degraded .....
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aa-lex
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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In reference to science vs study:
I always thought that science was a form of study that employs the scientific method. Pretty much means observe and experiment to learn about stuff. I think a study does not necessarily assume you use experimentation.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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Yes modern science nice experiments.
Drop bomb and kill everything and make radioactive.
Gee whiz man looky at dat.
Ho man what a fuk up.
Real science finds out before you act.
Oh wait, there's no God and no creator we say, so we must experiment.
It's so much more fun "playing" God ......
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aa-lex
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Geez Werner calm down buddy. Just referencing what I feel is the difference between science and study. I did not condone any bomb dropping dude. And yes I think we could have a study of morality, thereby reducing negative effects of experimentation.
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aa-lex
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:43pm PT
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Though I will say that not all scientific experimentation has serious side effects or even side effects at all. Its not playing god, its learning. You just gotta have some ability to pick out which experiments give more bad than good, and which have largely positive effects.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 02:58pm PT
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I know, it is a TOUGH subject.
The truth! That's why moral philosophy remains with the liberal arts. As pointed out above, the opportunities to use the scientific method there are probably limited.
John
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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Great Subject! You are reading some cool stuff.
A Science of Morality sounds like a great subject.
Any area of science, as it forges ahead in discovery, should learn a morality as it goes.
A set of morals guides humans through decision making process. However there needs to be a "moral north" for that compass to work.
Religion has provided morals so far. Some are quite outdated and have no relevance.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2010 - 03:12pm PT
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And now WHAT IF the "scientific" research and analysis showed homogenous societies (think birds of a feather...) were the happiest, that homogenous societies reported the most wellbeing or the most life satisfaction, does that mean we SHOULD work to eliminate diversity at some point?
This book, the Moral Landscape, doesn't cover THAT sticky one.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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I think we're working on making diversity itself homogeneous. Right?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2010 - 03:23pm PT
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Good point. Did you catch ABC News last night: the Chinese are learning English (in record numbers) and the English are learning Chinese (in record numbers). Perhaps a modern age moral?
EDIT Now if we only had enough fossil fuels in the ground for a couple hundred more years, we wouldn't have to think about "re-localization" or "re-provincialization" or "re-tribalization". -So soon.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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The mundane moralists will perpetually be puzzled and bewildered by the external energies because he has never yet come to the conclusions of the absolute truth, summon bonum.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Good point, HFCS. If morality consists of what we should do, empitical studies have their place. Already, much human psychological theory has empirical foundations.
We face difficulty if we define morality as what we all agree we should do. That agreement tends toward the null set.
Thanks for posting a provocative and interesting topic, though.
John
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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I see us moving toward a world language that blends all of them. (You especially see this in the subject of food. )
Those who increase their ability to communicate are going to be more employable. Bilingual or multilingual is the future.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 16, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Japan seems to offer for study one of the most homogeneous societies.
They have a very strong sense of national culture and identity, and are used to living closely in very populated areas, often in extended family settings
and in comparatively smaller living spaces.
Their unemployment rate is now a very favorable 5%.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 16, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Norton- good point to that particular hypothetical. (BTW, what's the suicide rate - perhaps as a cue to life satisfaction - for this homogenous culture? I thought Japan was a leader in this infamous category.)
One realization that any modern study of morality (not necessarily scientific) points to, I think, is that there really is no absolute morality. (Yes, despite the teachings of traditional belief systems.) That realization inspires a couple of points: (1) If only there were an absolute morality, how much easier some things - like getting on in the "practice" of living - would be. (2) Auggh, another spiritual letdown. How many should we have to take, really? Wasn't it one more buildup of expectation (through childhood training), expectation dashed, leading to one more disappointment upon maturity. -Perhaps this doesn't have to be, to continue, in the future.
Which reminds me of a quote from the other day: "Sometimes losing an illusion is more meaningful than finding a truth."
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nov 16, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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Knowing Fructose would ask this: Quite high suicide rate.
This may or may not be related to their sense of culture, nationality, or
morality. No reasons are given, just the numbers.
Is it possible that the Japanese simply do not have the strong cultural or familial mores against suicide that most other nations have?
They do have a very long history of honor related suicide.
from Wiki:
The rapid increase in suicides since the 1990s has raised concerns. For example, 1998 saw a 34.7% increase over the previous year.[1] Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, especially amongst industrialized nations,[5] and the Japanese government reported the rate for 2006 as being the ninth highest in the world.[6]
In 2009, the number of suicides rose 2 percent to 32,845 exceeding 30,000 for the twelfth straight year and equating to nearly 26 suicides per 100,000 people.[7] This amounts to approximately one suicide every 15 minutes.[3] However, this figure is somewhat disputed since it is arguably capped by the conservative definition of "suicide" that has been adopted by the Japanese authorities, which differs from the WHO's definition. Some people thus suggest a rather larger figure of 100,000 suicides a year. Currently, the conservative per year estimate is still significantly higher than for any other OECD (Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development) country. In comparison, the UK rate is about 9 per 100,000, and the US rate around 11 per 100,000.[3]
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