Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:00am PT
|
Warbler, very true. But there is one aspect of this issue that is really important today. I began in Cortinas and then Spiders. They were board lasted lightweight boots but stiff as hell. And we wore than extremely tight as well. In offwidth such stiffness is a huge huge plus usually. It is also amazingly precise and makes you climb precisely.
Oblique heel-and-toe placements were incredibly powerful, not to mention regular 90 degree ones. And when you would stem out to an edge you got, again, giant power. And finally, your toes and feet did not get as tired as quickly because the shoes were doing so much work. Eventually when you got Spiders and similar shoes broken in, you could semi-smear even. BUT let's not forget that the rubber was NOT sticky but actually nearly hard and so this made you square yourself off all the time on edges--- not necessarily a good thing but again if it worked, it was more restful. Finally the shoes were kind of tall and had complete ankle protection. You could press with all your might on those ankles and still be semi-okay in offwidths and similar situations.
The natural transition for me was then to wear PA's. They were pretty damned stiff too but way more form-fitting and light. You could edge bigtime on them but again smearing was miserable. They were not so much a granite shoe in this respect but in offwidths they were pretty incredible especially since again they were kind of high and protected your ankles really well.
Eventually I gave up stiff shoes for things like 5.10 Newtons and Acopa JB's but still pine for the days of stiff shoes.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:05am PT
|
You can still do it!
Mixed climbs, or even early season climbs in the mountains
can be done in boots. It's nice to have stiff soled ones,
but you can edge, climb cracks, etc. . .
Not good on smearing, but they work!
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:05am PT
|
I sure liked my blue RR's a lot better after I broke all the knobs under the balls of my feet!
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:08am PT
|
Did my first wall in Garmisch boots although I'd worn Kronhaufers for years.
Oops!
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 12:12am PT
|
What Peter said.
We wore only stiff boots in the Alps and Himalayas.
Easy transition from crampons to the rocks.
The added benefit there is that they kept your feet warm.
Not to mention that the weight of the things helped develop more leg muscles
on both approaches and the rock!
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 01:18am PT
|
One of the shoe manufacturers should make a shoe that is board-lasted, high and a bit stiff in the upper as well but soled with our modern rubber. Don't start padding and insulating it though. I think they would sell the hell outta of them. Especially once they got "understood". Taller than a Kaukulator and a bit stiffer. Ankle fully, yes fully covered, no exception.
I had my Kaukulators soled with Stealth rubber and it was awesome. Still have them too. But the shoe was still too low and could have been stiffer. I mean, stop this smearing, bendy business. We accept special shoes for situations, why not for offwidths too!?!
The softer the shoe the worse for offwidths and cracks just below that size. I watch less experienced climbers trying to offwidth in slippers and similar and it is just a nightmare for them. And pointless.
And the softer the shoe, the stronger you have to be in your toes and feet. And maybe too, your upper body since you're smearing so much which sets up this whole unrestful arrangement.
|
|
DonC
climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 01:20am PT
|
mid 60's - Tahquitz. There wasn't anything else at the time.
|
|
Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 01:28am PT
|
I really like what Peter says about shoes, especially edging and wide stuff. Although I started a little later, my first shoes were Spiders, and I was climbing at Castle Rock S.P. where the sloper and friction reigns supreme. I got pretty good anyway, because you use what you have, but E.B.s were a revelation at Castle. When I finally got to Yose, there were a few climbs where I wish I had my Spiders.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 01:37am PT
|
Once I realized that heavy hiking boots with Vibram soles climbed better than the cowboy boots i had been using I was sold on them. Sure they were heavy as cinder blocks but boy could they edge and jam. Eventually I got a pair of the trusty RRs. Wow what a break through they were. I got them because EBs seemed so radical at the time. RRs seemed like high tech hiking boots by comparison.
Of course EBs were the bomb and it wasn't long before I was sporting a pair of the blue and whites.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 01:45am PT
|
And now EB's are an abomination! Funny. I had a bunch of pairs of them too after I left PA's and for some climbs I was actually set back but on others--- appropriate ones--- I leapt forward with them. Because our sport-art is so wide ranging with the types of things our feet have to do, we should add to the collection of shoes, a technical stiff Mo-Fo offwidth boot that is also totally up-to-date in rubber and fit. And it has to be high. Cutting them off at or near the ankle is just woosing out and trying to be all things to all rock. I guess I should add too that a climber's weight has a lot to do with this too. If you are like something more than 170 lbs these modern shoes and slippers are effing horrid in wide cracks.
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 02:10am PT
|
My buddy Woody had me wear my hiking boots one time climbing a route up on Tahquitz, he wanted me to experience what it was like back in the day. I found it was fine in cracks, but on any friction area I floundered pretty bad. It was fun I must say but glad we have our modern climbing shoes.
One thing though, great to not lug up shoes in my pack while climbing; hike up in them, climb in them, then hike down, that was nice!
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 02:30am PT
|
What, ya gonna do this bare foot?
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 02:38am PT
|
Maybe the La Sportiva Mariachers should be brought back! I remember the British importers complaining because the lasted so long and could be resoled forever.
I loved the green Shoenards for edging.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 02:53am PT
|
My first climbing shoes were fabiano trail boots. You just accepted the way they worked cause it was all you knew.
Then I got a used pair of RD's hoh man! I was amazed!
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 02:59am PT
|
Many of the first slab climbs at Squamish were done in stiff boots (including RRs). Edging on crystals.
As to what somebody said above about taking a stiffish high-top old-style boot and putting modern rubber on it...
I did a fair amount of climbing in Shoenards (NE Butt of Slesse with Mighty Anders, for example), using them for approach, climb, and descent. And also used them for cleaning because they were comfy for standing in aiders. But the hard rubber lugged sole was a bit of a limiting factor.
Some time around 1997, I got Dave Page to replace the lugged front sole with 5.10 rubber. It was revelatory. I could climb very nearly as well in them as in whatever I thought my best shoe was back then.
A couple of years ago I found an unused pair at a second-hand gear store for next-to-nothing. So I bought them and sent them straight down to Locker. He resoled them with perfect workmanship, but he also put some kind of hex on them. But that's a whole other story (which you can read at http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=660999&msg=660999#msg660999 if you're interested).
Of course, nothing like that is made now, but maybe the TC Pro is a kind of compromise? Half old school, half new?
|
|
Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 03:03am PT
|
I do remember climbing better and faster in boots when stuff started coming down from way up high!
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 10:30am PT
|
On various routes in Idaho and Washington in the 1970’s: I climbed up to 5.9 in mountain boots.
Of course, we didn’t usually plan on climbing that hard in mountain boots. It just happened: through poor pre-planning or over-confidence.
One of my first “big-routes” was the Open Book on the Finger of Fate in Idaho’s Sawtooth. It was considered 5.6 in 1971 and is now rated 5.9.
I climbed it at the end of a ten-day trip that was mostly backpacking. No reason to have my REI brand imitation RR’s along.
Here’s me, dressed all in cotton, with my Raichle boots in an unprotected chimney near the top.
The tough pitch with the boots: was led by Chris with RR’s. I was terrified following it, since my fat-round boot toes did not fit in the hand crack.
In one of my stupider moments: I led the same crack 6 years later in mountain boots. Just as terrifying as in 1971, but much worse: since I was now on “the sharp end” of the rope. Somehow it had seemed bright to trot into the route and “knock it off” with minimal loads.
|
|
donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 10:39am PT
|
Rock climbing in boots pretty much sucks- I've done a fair amount of it over my alpine climbing career. Could never force myself to "practice" rock climbing with boots on. Rock climbing has always been too much fun for me to knowingly handicap myself in any way.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 10:59am PT
|
The cobbler's curse never lost traction...LOL
I started out in RR Yosemites and I'm glad that I did because I learned a lot about footwork in terms of weight distribution and steady contact. I quit using chalk very early on and that sharpened up my footwork even more!
The amount of focus and care necessary for leading was much higher, BITD!
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Sep 19, 2010 - 11:15am PT
|
I've lived through multiple iterations of shoe concepts. The original kletterschue came stiff, like the Spiders Peter mentioned, medium, like the Cortina's he also mentioned and also Zillertals, and soft, like Kronehoffers, the slipper of BITD.
Kamps was the Cortina master; he did things in them which remain very impressive even in today's upgraded fit and rubber.
For the steep face-climbing areas I learned to climb it, it was generally assumed that stiffer was better. For climbing at Devil's Lake in Zillertals, we used to use homemade insoles cut from thin cookie baking sheets. These made funny sounds when they flexed a little and eventually cracked, so it was prudent to have a second pair available.
Sometime in the sixties, while perusing a French climbing magazine (Alpinisme?), I saw an ad for RD's (the initials belong to Rene Desmaison). These had a beautiful thick leather upper, a smooth but very hard sole, and a steel shank for stiffness. I somehow managed to figure out sizing and ordered a pair from the catalog of Edouard Frendo. The total cost, after paying import duty, was $15. These shoes eventually became the standard for Gunks climbing, and were independently "discovered" by Western climbers, although they never caught on for Yosemite climbing.
As we moved into the seventies, the face-climbing shoe of choice became one of the Shoenard iterations. The green ones were the stiffest, and Steve Wunsch, one of the most controlled and precise climbers ever in my experience, was the master of the art.
From the eighties on (well, I'm really not sure of the dates), shoes evolved away from stiffness, with slip-lasting and close fit combined with sticky rubber taking the place of built-in stiffness. The sticky rubber revolution was ushered in by John Bachar and Fire's, which were a very soft shoe.
To address at least part of the OP's question, I think that modern shoes with sticky rubber, enhanced ability to conform, and great sensitivity gave rise to a revolution in climbing technique, making it possible to securely move your foot on a hold while standing on it. Modern back-stepping and drop-knee techniques, which are part of the more general technique of facing sideways on steep rock, all require the ability to pivot on weighted holds; this was an absolute no-no with hard rubber soled stiff shoes, which would immediately pop off a hold without warning if you moved your foot.
The stiff shoes required absolute precision: you placed your foot carefully by sight---the shoe had virtually no sensitivity so no adjustments by feel were possible---and then kept that foot rigid on the hold, no matter what other motions were happening with the rest of your body. Climbers stared intensely at their footholds in a way you don't see much any more, now that the visual placement is enhanced by tactile feedback and the ability to make adjustments on the hold while weighting it.
Having grown up and done all my best climbing in stiff shoes, I've never been happy in really flexible ones and have never felt good in slippers. But I've also learned a lot about smearing, and now see holds on steep rock that used to be blank.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!