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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 18, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Booty is a subjective word, depending on whether one has a chance to return the recovered gear to its original owner. I don't ever expect to see my gear again if I ever leave it behind.
That said, if you climbed the difficult right variations of Pitches 3 and 4 of Third Pillar of Dana this weekend (July 17/18) you would have encountered three cams that were left behind during Friday's 3-hour thunderstorm and an emergency escape.
If you recovered the gear and you would like to help it get back to the people who lost it please message me.
Three SLCD's placed near each other. I'll identify it. THANKS
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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looks like someone had a very memorable epic! :)
Always wondered, does that light weight "Precip" stuff really keep you dry in a storm? Or is it really only fair weather storm gear. lol
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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20% chance of "late afternoon" t-storms was the forecast for each of the last four days. We got an early start and would have finished before the rain if we didn't get so far off on the right. The rain started at 1pm.
Yeah, there were a few clouds floating overhead at 9am when we started climbing..but after hiking 3.5 hours and having looked forward to the climb, we decided to roll the dice. One would be tempted to say "never again" or "now we know better", but that is pretty stupid. Even though we epic'd, I don't think it was poor judgement to start the climb that day, given the facts available at that time.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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"after hiking 3.5 hours and having looked forward to the climb, we decided to roll the dice. One would be tempted to say "never again" or "now we know better", but that is pretty stupid. Even though we epic'd, I don't think it was poor judgement to start the climb..."
Nicely put.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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CM, You have a point with the weather forecast. I probably should have studied it more vigorously. I may have had my NOAA site calibrated for a location more to the west. It was calling for 20% chance in the afternoon; and my partner said he checked and found that it was 10% ( I have since concluded that he and I don't make the best team decisions together...I would rather go on my own analysis from now on).
It is an over-generalization to suggest that our thinking was dangerous. Any climber, after assessing the situation and taking inventory of his resources and confidence, will take certain risks. In fact, I believe that's one of the central elements of our sport. My partner and I each have 10+ years experience, and my partner has been guiding for 15 years. We believed that, should the weather turn (unlikely as it seemed, according to the weather info we had) we could still safely escape. And we eventually did find a situation that worked for us, the details of which are a different story. In the case of this climb, there was a confluence of many unlikely events-- and we paid the price by having a sh^tty time and losing some gear.
But thanks for your comment, I am stressed enough about it that I have been looking for constructive takeaways. Presented with the same situation, I think I would do it the same way next time--except I will double check that I have the right weather data!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Cragman- And this, just after I decided to let the sleeping dog lie. Shame on you. You do like to stir up the hornet's nest with your fundamentalist Christian-styled black or white judgments.
Hey, I can't wait to see your family picture or pictures of the hominid dinosaur footprints, I'm sure they're going to set straight the scientists.
Your posts in this thread raise numerous arguments. For starters, I know you don't think you're the only Eastside climber yet it is as if you presume to speak for all of us.
Climbing is a "roll of the dice." An unroped solo of Third Pillar is a "roll of the dice." Do I really need to go on? C'mon.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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All locals here in the Eastern Sierra know that a forecast indicating 20%> Chance of TS's means shet is gonna fly, guaranteed. And means to stay home and enjoy the afternoon electrical light show.
Thanks Cragman, that is a valuable comment. And I did not know that. Quite seriously, I might like to take you up on the suggestion that I contact you for other regional information.
"The Chief"...[Edit, removal of abusive profanity] You have never met me, and despite my apparent misunderstanding of reconciling NOAA probabilities with Eastern Sierra reality, you don't need to classify everyone west of Hwy 49 as some n00b who is over his head. I have climbed all over North America and I take pride in making the right decisions in difficult situations. I always review for things to do better next time --including improving my understanding of your local weather. I don't think that's the profile of reckless climbers.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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Oh my. Some weather rolled in on some climbers and now we got the East Side Nannies issuing the scolding.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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3.5 hrs. of hiking- did one of you have a foot in a caste?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Bertrand- C'mon, don't cave to that arrogance who tends to see just about everything in black n white.
I'm also an East Sierran, pretty much a native. 20% means just that. And more. You could hear a warning for flash flood, too, and experience sun all day. Bottom line: it was a judgment call and you made it and these guys are playing monday morning quarterback.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Years ago I hiked into Clyde Minaret with a friend to do the south face. About 9am we saw clouds moving in. We watched and after talking to another group on the route we decided to continue with the idea that if it hit us we would all bail together. Near the top of the dihedral it cut lose - rain and lightning. But we were on the edge of the storm. It passed and with 20 minutes it quit raining. So we hung out for an hour to let things dry out and then decided to continued on. We topped out and then did the usual descent. When we got back to the base the other group was still trying to bail off, having one pitch left to go. Good fun in the Sierras.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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About the 3.5 hours. That caught my eye, too. But that's not the gist of the thread.
Cragmans' (1) a local and (2) older. So this might mean he's free to choose optimal day, he's spoiled, he's softer, more mellow, more conservative than back in the day, all the above. All these factors could be taken into the thinking also.
Quote: "It passed and with 20 minutes it quit raining. So we hung out for an hour to let things dry out and then decided to continued on. We topped out and then did the usual descent."
This, too, is regular occurrence in the Sierra. (Unmentioned on the first page of this thread.) I've experienced this dozens of times.
Bertrand: You climbed. You lived. Now you have a story to tell the grandkids someday.
Suppose, Cragman, you related a story about how you climbed 3rd Pillar bitd solo unroped and on the 5th pitch got scared. And chose to share the story here at the Taco. Then some wiseacre posted saying that was reckless... that that action "could have gotten you killed," and "endangered the lives of SAR professionals." Would that be acceptable?
Get off it.
Save your talk of humility for the sheep. You love it: the infighting, the black and white judgement calls, the passive aggression.
Reminder: Can't wait for the footprints pictures. Looking forward to them!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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In the mountains with uncertain weather time is a critical factor. That includes approach time and descent time.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Bert, as we say in my neck of the woods...tough titty said the little bitty kitty. Do you really expect some stranger to return those cams? It's booty now.
Sometimes a little gear is the price you pay for your fun and safety. Get used to the idea if you're going to be an alpine climber.
I bet Donini would love to have all those rap anchors back. Kor has almost no old hardwear because he left it all out there. That's what climbers do, successful or knott.
Oh, and by the way, learn to respect the weather reports. No excuse for missing a weather report these days.
Glad you're alive!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Alright, I'll tell you exactly what I would've done if I were anywhere 1st to 3rd pitch on Third Pillar. Under approaching thunder and lightning. I would've descended past the base over to the trees under the east facing ridge (to the west). That would've been a secure hangout either till the storm passed or until evening (worse case scenario) upon which Sierra summer storms abate nine times out of ten and then (a) climbed or (b) hiked out the descent approach. THAT from another local. So, Bertrand, that is an alternative data point for your reasoning to contrast with Cragman's.
BTW, Bertrand, around the time you climbed, I also checked the point forecast for the area (the Hulk, however) and remember seeing 20%. No way to prove it, tho, otherwise I'd be shoving it in Cragman's face. Oh, and 20% means just that, one in five.
Good luck next time. Take Cragman's beta as one data point, not as the Gospel. That's my beta.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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To be clear, we're playing rugby ay what?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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The weather respects no man's ego. On a commiting climb, you should learn to read the aviation forecasts for the area. They are called "prognostics" and they are really accurate. Lightning is a very random killer and doesn't check your climbing resume.
Re: Booty. You leave it--don't expect to get it back. If I have to leave something to get my a$$ down from a dangerous situation, I consider it money well spent, and hope the finder will make good use of it as well. In a long climbing career, you'll find as much as you leave.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I don't want my ego getting in the way of good advice from those who offer it.
You guys seem to know what you are talking about.
I might have received TC's first comment better if it had acknowledged that even smart and reasonably experienced climbers can make decisions that end up bad.
Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. Would you guys have bailed at this moment? Right variation of P3. (incidentally the thin fingers above and left of the small roof 30' above me is where the gear was left, if anyone wants it.)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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"would have sped up that whole natural selection thing"
This argument wouldn't work on Cragman as he is a proud Creationist, perhaps like his brother, Brennan. (Brennan, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Wow. This is just... wow.
First, my thoughts on this whole thing is that a weather report that said 20% chance of thunderstorms would not stop me from climbing. Actually, it probably would stop me from climbing, but I can see how it wouldn't stop someone else from climbing. (My fiance, who y'all know as Dirka, would for sure be out there if the forecast only said 20%.) And it most definitely wouldn't stop me from doing something else outdoors. But, that said, the gear was sacrificed to your adventure and I think ultimately your request for it back is what caused this flame-fest.
Second, Chief, you should be ashamed for your PS comment about the 3.5 hour approach that merely piggybacks off of donini's comment, repeating what he said in a slightly different way. If you're going to criticize someone, at least be original about it instead of echoing what other posters are saying.
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