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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 25, 2010 - 03:00am PT
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I know, it's a touchy subject, so bear with me. My old college friend, a practicing psychiatrist, said recently that "there is evidence that climbers are more prone to suicide then general population". She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
Once faced with a statement like that I countered that unless there is a JAMA article, it's a crock of sh#t. However, empirically I do feel that there might be some truth to that statement. A lot of smart, highly driven people push themselves pretty hard to do questionable, risky things. We all do it, in some shape or form - free solo really hard routes, red-point R-rated trad climbs, climb avalanche-prone mountains etc. Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
Do you think climbers are more suicide prone then general population? Are we really out there to kill ourselves?
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:09am PT
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Climbers embrace edges. Mortal cuts, going over, falling off; all are part of the possible for those having such an affinity.
Ian
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:11am PT
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I agree with your initial reaction - show me the real data.
People with depression are probably at highest risk for suicide.
From
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml
Research shows that risk factors for suicide include:
 depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors.
prior suicide attempt
family history of mental disorder or substance abuse
family history of suicide
family violence, including physical or sexual abuse
firearms in the home, the method used in more than half of suicides
incarceration
exposure to the suicidal behavior of others, such as family members, peers, or media figures.
[Edit to add:]
Perhaps your friend was using informal language - instead of "suicidal", maybe she mean "daredevil". Climbers might seem (to an outsider) to embrace an unacceptably high level of risk. Actually, we usually act to control the risk, so we get the thrill without dying that often - like a professional stuntman.
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Fletcher
Trad climber
Just me and three kids
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:18am PT
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I agree with Clint, show me the data.
I would ask the psychiatric community this: it seems to me that suicide is an intentional thing. With most climbers, then, it would appear that the intent is subliminal if the thesis is correct. Why the advancements in gear, safety systems, endless analysis on rc.noob, and more appropriately analytical documents like ANAM? If we all wanna die, then why all the effort to prevent fatality?
Maybe there is such an affliction as subliminal intent to to take one's life? That seems pretty odd.
Eric
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:19am PT
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From what I have observed, and felt personally I would not disagree. As a group we seem to have an aversion to a Higher Power, and are independent, and self reliant. This leads me to believe, when life gets hard, and we are in a weakened state, we have nothing of strength to rely on. So death might be more appealing than continued suffering.
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mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
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Mar 25, 2010 - 03:23am PT
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Fletcher, good hypothesis. But my guess regarding gear/protection is that climbers fear injury/suffering more than death.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 03:35am PT
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Climbers embrace edges. Mortal cuts, going over, falling off; all are part of the possible for those having such an affinity.
No kidding. Question is - are we driven to the edge because we want to eventually fall off? Personally, if anything, the state of risk makes me feel more alive. On the other hand, I remember thinking "what have I got to lose?" when I was preparting to redpoint an R/X rated 5.12 in the Gunks (No Solution) some time ago. Suicidal tendency might be more of a subliminal thing, though.
There are plenty of people out there who climb as a form of physical conditioning. For them, safety is paramount. A lot of recreational climbers I know would only toprope. Many of them would not leave the padded safety of the gym. Here, however, we are talking about the "climbing community", people that view outdoor climbing as their lifestyle.
I would definitely would refute the gear hypothesis - look at the recent explosion of ultra-highball boulder problems, multi-pitch free solos and A4+ aid routes.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 04:55am PT
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I disagree with the suicide thing as a blanket statement, but it might be safer to make a blanket statement like "there is more risk tolerance to get more out of life."
And maybe a propensity for OW climbers to grovel and suffer. Heck, even the abbreviation is an onomatopoeia! But can you really call it suffering if you enjoy it?
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Mar 25, 2010 - 05:25am PT
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Give me a freaking break. Are formula one drivers more suicidal than the general public? Hang gliders? Moto Cross? Spelunkeres? Olympic luge participants? Base jumpers?
There are some that will seek out high adrenalin pursuits that put them on the cusp of life and death (most are with lots of safeguards to guarantee a continued life). Climbers, by and large, are out there doing what they (we) do not because of some death wish but because it makes them feel alive. And, by golly, it's just fun.
There's something to be said about these so called dangerous persuits. I think that it has more to do with the fact that in today's world the most dangerous thing we do is drive to work and not many of us think that's dangerous or feel the thrill of that danger. Some of us, who need it, seek it else where. Doesn't make it suicidal thought.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 05:47am PT
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Are formula one drivers more suicidal than the general public? Hang gliders? Moto Cross? Spelunkeres? Olympic luge participants? Base jumpers?
Probably yes, implicitly. Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
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Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
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Mar 25, 2010 - 09:10am PT
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I have thought about this not in terms of suicide, but more mental balance and the dark side of climbing.
Earl Wiggins comes to mind, He soloed scenic cruse in the black canyon at age 19 in some thing like 1.5 hours. 15 or so pitches in 1.5 hours (I'm sure some one will correct me).
Earl use to say (according to what I've read) he only really worried about soloing the first pitch and ending up injured. As you probably know Earl commited suicide in his own home several years ago. Was he attempting to kill himself years ago? Who knows, but he might have been.
Do climbers need to feel alive? Yes
Do we all want to die? NO
I have never been sucidial. That being said, the more my life has sucked in the past, the more I have been driven to climb hard stuff at the limit of my ability. Not because I wanted to die, but because climbing is so life affirming; for me at least.
-Ezra
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Mar 25, 2010 - 09:24am PT
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Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
By this definition, any person, usually male, who ran forth in history with his spear to defend his group was suicidal? Were the men who stormed Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima suicidal? Any mother in history who risked her life to defend her young?
Of course no one would ever argue that because they see the direct cause and effect connection and because it was for others. In fact it is part of our evolutionary heritage.
What psychologists and the public can't understand are the people who still have those genes but no outlet for them in modern life except through the self expression of their sports.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 09:25am PT
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i've written a suicide sonnatta here before.
i find my way down all kinds of thought paths.
for reasons of treason, to the status quo.
"A dramatic echo richochets down the steep canyon walls.
All life forms within experience this echo,
which resounds the report of the culmination of an inexhaustible dream.
To the author of the noise, the report sounds as but a whisper, entering thru one ear, and leaving thru the other.
Like a book, she closes her story in-line with it’s spine.
Hope, perched on the ridge of her existence: one leg dangles over the abyss of her ambitions and pleasures, the other leg over the slippery slope of her fears and depressions.
Simultaneously holding her hands triumphantly high in the air, and wielding a gun,
Spatters of her glorious existence temporarily take flight, like little angels, landing softly upon her defining smile.
Softly like the first snowflake upon a land."
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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Mar 25, 2010 - 09:46am PT
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a little risk helps one feel alive, and generally speaking risk is no longer a factor in most of our required daily lives. so we seek out recreational sources.
i imagine some people don't feel a need to hang out there, others do. this is no sign of mental illness. maybe their is a statistical correlation between risk takers and suicide, but i'm generally paranoid of statisticians.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Mar 25, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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Aaahh crap! I was thinking this thread had something to do with climbing. Off to see if locker is lurking on the ZZ Tops thread.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 10:19am PT
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Slevin,
As with all psychologizing, your old college friend’s concept seems quite pat and easily swallowed by many. I have encountered this idea, by the way, off and on for decades--- it isn't that hard to cook up. People climb for quite a variety of reasons and most of these people’s efforts are not even dangerous at all. IN fact climbing may be safer than driving cars! For the few whose activities are in fact very deadly (as were mine certainly back in the day) again we have quite a variety of people performing the most drastic deeds and in quite a variety of ways.
I started climbing 47 years ago. Of the thousands of climbers I have known, I seem to only be able to count three or so actual suicides. (Hemmings, Dolt, Yablonsky, Wiggins) Hardly a run on suicides here, I would have to say. I really doubt there is much of a significant correlation to be found here. Rate of suicide for 1999 in the general population in the US is .01% (1.3% of total deaths are from suicide). There is of course the associated fact that suicide attempts may be as many 8-25 for every successful one.
Real suicide is very different than suicidal ideation---such thinking that occurs in everyone to some degree. The act of erasing oneself is in many respects the exact antithesis of high level climbing where you are doing all things possible to maintain and win. So in this respect a suicide theory could tempt one to assume it as the mechanism being toyed with (subliminally or overtly) in such other-worldly situations as maximum-danger climbing. That is to say, the individual contemplating a hard climb is also contemplating its adopted imagined opposite: that of an utter failure just as dramatic as total success would be---that the whole undertaking plays with a deck entirely made up of cards that say “die” or “live”, in this card game. But again, way too simplistic but surely there is always some truth as well.
So along with just about everyone here, I find the theory unfounded in fact probably and so generalized as to be useless and kind of corny but certainly a lot of fun.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 10:35am PT
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Well, my reply was "show me the data".
My inner view was that we have a more reckless view on life with a bit of "what have I got to lose?" kind of mentality.
PS. Number of social misfits in adrenaline sports is higher too, at least so it seems.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 10:41am PT
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What a bunch of deniers.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 10:48am PT
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"rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people"
Me? Highly driven? That's a joke.
Mountain Dog is onto something about climbers worrying more about injury than death. Injury is such a PITA, especially as you get older and healing and recovery gets longer and longer. I only got so many good summers left, I can't be wasting them wearing casts.
Is climbing really so adrenaline driven? I like being outdoors, going someplace different. And solving puzzles. A 5.4 crack where the moves are not obvious and you have to stop and consider your sequence and ponder what you're going to do once you get to that spot, is more interesting than an obvious 5.9 climb. Heading into the Sierra for a third class ridge climb with minimal beta is a real hoot, now that's fun.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 10:52am PT
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Its all a crock. If climbers were suicide prone, they wouldn't ever use gear. Most climbers love life, and thats why they pursue climbing, the fabulous experience and the adrenalin. I think most psychiatrists/psychologists(wtfta) dream up sh#t like that simply to justify their own existence.
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