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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Yes. Justice!
Nice to know Kansas doesn't have as many ol' time
religious fundamentalists in the court system as the Muslim world.
How tragic though. Why is this man going down?
For "living up to" the traditional beliefs of his religion...
archaic as they are, formulated in the bronze age,
institutionalized over millenia and maintained by millions even today.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:10pm PT
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Sweet!!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 01:47pm PT
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Good News.
The jury reached the verdict, too, in less than two hours.
This verdict suggests Kansas is modernizing
and faith discipline practice (today by and large still in the form of the religious model) is evolving.
It is a tragedy: Scott Roeder grew up believing in "the ghost in the machine" religious concept, that the ghost, ensouled by Yahweh, needs protection. And now he'll be paying the price. The price for this antiquated belief. The price for not adapting to more modern thought.
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franky
climber
Davis, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Whew, good news. I wasn't really worried, but I still feel some relief.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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Yeah, Franky, surely. Just because something is being tried in court does not at all mean it will be adjudicated correctly. And I am relieved here too.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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"Please don't blame Roeders actions on Christians HFCS. The man is obviously very mentally ill."
Arent they all?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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I don't know that I'd call him insane.
He was using a "justifiable murder" defense. He was arguing that murder was OK as he was preventing other murders. It's pretty sickening that he was even allowed to use this defense.
But he very clearly thought through what he was going to do and then carefully executed it. And it was based on beliefs held by a lot of people.
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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One news report said the defense and prosecution presentations were so similar the jury had no difficulty. It reached a decision in 37 minutes. The facts of the case were never contested. The defense constructed its case in an attempt to get the judge to reduce the charge to voluntary manslaughter.
Roeder admitted making two separate trips to Tiller's church with the aim of murdering him so premeditation was self apparent. Tiller's facility had previously been firebombed and there had been a number of other events perpetrated by abortion activist groups.
I really would think there has to be additional enforcement action regarding the other incidents based upon terrorism statutes. I don't know how else to describe what these groups are doing.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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I agree John. And I guess in early March we will hear the sentencing.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:45pm PT
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Agreed!!!
Hate to say it but what happened should shine the light on the religiouity of anyone who professes to be religious....
Or christian, at the very least...
On a side note.. the hospital the Dr worked at has replaced the doctor who was killed with a new doc who does the work at half the price...
So attendance at the hospital has gone up!
(ok, I have no factual stats to support that last statement.. mainly becuase it is meant as a joke)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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We ARE changing. At the individual level and on up, through communities to nations to the species at large. So there's hope. It just seems some times it's happening so SLOWLY...
Ever more of us are realizing: Beliefs matter. Beliefs are not inconsequential. We live our beliefs. In fact, it's easy to see beliefs (i.e., mental "holdings") as behavioral drivers.
The sad tragedy in the Scott Roeder case is his "behavioral drivers" (that is, his beliefs) are/were antiquated. He failed to update his behavioral drivers like increasing millions have.
Please don't blame Roeders actions on Christians HFCS. The man is obviously very mentally ill.
I don't know, how does one define "mentally ill" or "insane." Was Andrea Yates insane when she drowned her children in the fear that they might go to hell were she not to? in the hope that dying young would guarantee them eternal life in heaven? of course taking into account that her Christian religion installed in her head (through a life time of upbringing) specific models for how the world works and how life works that differed from modernity's. To her, hell was as real as Earth. To her, all of God Yahweh's Kingdom was a three-layer cake.
Were not her actions "in-line" with her beliefs? Were not Roeder's actions in-line with his beliefs (his mental behavioral drivers)? If so, then in this one sense, Yates and Roeder were not insane. Yet...
Yet, arguably one is "insane" for harboring antiquated models (for how the world works and how life works) formulated in the bronze age and institutionalized over centuries-- and applying them in modernity, in the 21st century. Hmm...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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Just as radical Muslims distort the Koran to justify terrorist acts, there is a significant number of Christian Fundamentalists (radical Christians) who distort the teachings of Christ and the Bible to justify crimes of hate and terrorism.
And to those who object to calling these "so-called "christians"** terrorists, what else to you call someone who justifies the use of violence to obtain social and/or political change?
** There is nothing Christian about them, imho.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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It does seem remarkable that the people who reflexively maintain that Islamist terrorists do not represent mainstream Muslim philosophy are the first to ascribe the murder of an abortionist by a "Christian" loony to basic Christian teachings. Who among us are really the intolerant ones?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
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Gazela, who's doing that, what your post says? It's a bit confusing.
Take government bureaucrats, for example, and let's personalize it. George Bush, for instance. He would say...
Islamist terrorists do not represent mainstream Muslim philosophy
In fact, he said it ad nauseum. Yet he would not
ascribe the murder of an abortionist by a "Christian" loony to basic Christian teachings
So it's a bit confusing- your post.
But I for one DO ascribe the doctor's murder to an Christian fundamentalist who--operating off of an antiquated lifeworks model-- believed he was killing a killer of babies (baby persons), persons since conception, since zygotic stage because of ensoulment by God Jehovah, of a ghost.
As was said on another thread:
"Some guy in Kansas (Scott Roeder) was just found guilty on all counts for murdering a doctor because he "lived up to" the ancient teaching that there is a ghost in the body that drives the body, that vacates the body upon death of the body, that even though the ghost lives on, God Jehovah hates it when man causes this separation so much he must be killed for it."
One more thing: Islamic terrorists do more accurately represent the Word in the Koran than do the moderates. They follow through on what the "Word of God" says to the letter while moderate Muslims, like moderate Christians, don't. The latter either (a) don't read the Word at all or (b) take the Word as literature not literal law or literal truth-- or at least they behave so. (e.g., working on the Sabbath, not stoning to death adulterers or infidels, etc.) Thank goodness.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Men who use violence against abortionists are not men at all.
The term COWARD comes to mind, as they fight for something they have no business fighting about.
my .02
edit: his days in prison will be what he deserves...
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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Amen.
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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I don't think he was insane or clinically ill either as some have said. Just a bad dude with some fanatical messed up ideals and convictions who obviously knew exactly what he was doing. Its good to see that the jury didn't pull some kind of O.J. on this one and that some semblance of right and wrong still exists.
He probably would have gotten off the hook in California.
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Blinky
Trad climber
North Carolina
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Jan 29, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
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Couldn't happen to a better guy.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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Two versus come to mind...
Thou shall not kill.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
------
As for Abortion... It is not a black and white issue. A friend had a child develop without a liver and kidney. It would have died at birth and put the mother at risk. Plus, how about pregnancies from rape? How about the pregnancy of an eight year old girl from her abuser? Or a pregnancy that is obviously too much for the mother's body to handle. That if it is allowed to progress it will kill her and the child?
People really need to step back and think before going off on some religious crusade. They should not be judging, be more forgiving and merciful. If they did that, they would be "true Christians" instead of vicious, vindictive, idiots who use the Bible as an excuse for their conduct.
I am glad the idiot is going to jail. I hope he stays there.
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