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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 9, 2009 - 10:20pm PT
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I need some feedback on this...a ground up bolting of this route...what do you think Poway Mountain Boys? It was rap bolted by Troy and Marty then pulled shortly thereafter back in the 90's. This is such a classic line and I've always thought it would maintain that status if it was bolted. Would it see any more traffic than what it already sees if bolted? Next question: hand or power drill?
Piggot hooked and hand drilled Phd. I'm feeling I should follow his lead?
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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I always loved this one! When I heard it was bolted I didn't really care that much as I guess I had already moved on to other places, and by then all of our best tr's in SD (mainly Mission Gorge...)Had already been rap bolted. But I heard that Chris Sharma had soloed this...And back in the day this would have been considered by my mentor JB as the style to follow...Let your conscience guide you, as all I can say is that the edges are so friable that hooking to drill may irreversibly damage the route...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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2nd let it be, not many will want to lead it with bolts, and you can always lead it w/o em. just be careful eh?
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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That's a good point Mike. I was there when it was beimg bolted and thought, "its about time!". I could mark the key holds and avoid hooking on them I suppose. Then again, if I rap bolt is someone going to run up there and pull them again?
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Yeah, good question there...Being raised in So. Cal. and always abiding by the ethical precedents that were always strictly enforced...I later became exposed to the dark side...Climbing at Smith with Al Watts, or when I went to Verdon in France I saw the other side...I had done things like drilling bathook holes to hang and drill on the lead on the steep, only to have to come back later to fill them, it seems like such a fine line...I'm only at this time going to expose the fact that I did Josh's first Rap Route "Disrythmia" 5.12 only after deeming that the edges wouldn't support hooking. After many repeats it still to this day hasn't been chopped...(now I've done it) But as far as Woodson is concerned I don't know if the style of the area can support this...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Then again, if I rap bolt is someone going to run up there and pull them again? i think the answer to this question is yes. i think it's also true that even if it gets bolted -- regardles of how the bolts go in -- it will remain primarily a tr. but mostly i wonder -- why do you want to bolt it at all? it's been enjoyed as a top-rope for over 25 years now, notwithstanding the brief time when it sported the rap bolts.
what is your motivation for wanting to bolt this venerable tr?
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
OR
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Hi Illusion Dweller. I think my brothers and I were likely the first to climb at Woodson (1966). Rick's bolting experiments were interesting historical anomalies and I think actually should not be considered any kind of consensus or precedent. I expect Rick and the Poway Mountaineers, would be generally opposed to bolts placed anywhere at Woodson. Thanks! -Bruce Adams
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:11am PT
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I've been climbing there for about a decade now and definitely consider myself a current day "local" to some degree. I've already run a few laps on that climb this season, and was out at Woodson again last weekend. I'm going to have to pipe in my 2 cents on this one...
My vote is leave it. I like the style out there. TR or boulder. The routes aren't long enough to justify marring the beauty with bolts. Just because a rock exists, doesn't mean we should bolt it to satisfy our egos. I truly love seeing some of those faces out there clean and boltless. Just enjoy it the way it is, like the rest of us, and if you feel the need to do it without a TR may I suggest the historical Woodson way: ropeless.
Josh
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apogee
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:03am PT
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"Then again, if I rap bolt is someone going to run up there and pull them again?"
"i think the answer to this question is yes."
And I would happily buy them the beer of their choice.
Edit: "Piggot hooked and hand drilled Phd. I'm feeling I should follow his lead?"
Why? So you can make the next version of a guidebook and tell the world, 'look at me'? Try wearing lycra next time you TR it- people will look, and they might laugh, but the rock will remain as it should be.
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matisse
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:28am PT
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Like Josh, I've been climbing out at Woodson for a bit, -over a decade now. I was the organizer of the adopt a crag event out there a few years back where we replaced a bunch of the old leepers and 1/4" bolt anchors (we didn't put in anything new).
I think you might underestimate how strongly people feel about bolting in San Diego particularly in certain areas, like Woodson. Bolting wars are still active in San Diego unfortunately.
Also especially since this is such a visible location I would be concerned about this encouraging a resurgence of convenience bolting like the ones that sprouted on the top of Baby Robbins one weekend and were gone by the next. Do we really need to bolt, chop, bolt, chop, ad infinitum, out at Woodson?
I'm not sure why you think it would get more traffic if it was bolted. It is only one climb a goodly hike up hill, amongst many little ones without bolts accessed only by trashing around in the bushes.
A whole new generation of climbers are wandering around out there now. Maybe it is good for them to buy a little gear and learn how to place it rather than bolting the living crap out of everything. I'm not suggesting that this is what you are proposing, but more a concern that others might interpret it as a green light.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:46am PT
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verify if Sharma has solo'd it, if so, then you know you let it be.
plus we get the history of knowing if Sharma sent it ropeless, eh?
if he says no, then you will have saved up time to think about it in any event.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
climber
. . . not !
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:19am PT
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"I heard that Chris Sharma had soloed this ."
. . . Then remove the toprope anchors also .
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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Took the words right out of my mouth Biotch. Then again, the first ascent wasn't soloed. I think that's the thought. And can you imagine if the first was soloed and just staring at the face and not trying it for you'd have to solo it to be justified? I think I know what's getting in the way here...PRIDE!
"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall" - Proverbs 16:18. How appropriate.
"...the green light"...green light to what, turn the TR's up there into leads? Having climbed up there since '81 myself I only know of, if even, a handful of routes on Woodson proper that would even be considered long enough to turn into leads. A bolted route up at Woodson is the exception and definietly would not turn it into the rule if another appeared. I host/guide kids (to me they are) up on Woodson to this day and inform them that it's primarily a TR area due to the size of the boulders (while shouldering their pads without rope or harness).
My thought when entertaining this idea today Bob, was to recreate an incredible lead opportunity for climbers that would be very unique for the area and incredibly fun and challenging! You have to wonder why the 5.6/5.7 ascent slab on the rock sports three bolts? Hey, you all that have "a decade" of Woodson experience under your belt, I can probably be your father. And as far as doing this to gain anything for myself...no son, it's not for me, it's for you for I am nothing. It's not about me anymore...that's what get's you to where I've been, and you don't want to go there. Hey Apogee, been there, done the lycra thang, and so did Bob, Tom, Dave, et al, and yes, it was humbling.
As far as the "convenience bolts" that are up there, now were talkin'! I've seen bolts appear (next to cracks at that) over the years on problems that, to this day, don't need to be there, but they remain. If anything, maybe my agenda should be removing convenience bolts instead of bolting Uncertainty! I'd probably get less disgruntlement out of that.
I can see which way the tide is turning on this as it progresses and it's not only interesting but getting historic as well! That's the first I've heard of climbing on Woodson back in '66 Brunsofari, sheesh, I was four! That must mean you could be the "kids" Grand....okay, I'll stop, lol!
When did Robbins climb up there?
Keep the input coming, if not just for me, but for those that might be considering the same, now and in the future.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 10:21am PT
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So... you could be my father...? Who cares? Does that make your opinion more valid? And this ISN'T about ego? If it weren't, why would you ever say that? You ask for people's opinions, we give a little background about ourselves and our opinions, and since our opinions conflict with yours you make your retarded age comparison implying that your opinion is more important that ours.
Why don't you come to an ACSD meeting and ask what people think instead of posting on the internet. There is a climbing community here in SD, and we can easily be found on the last Tuesday of most months at Callahan's in Mira Mesa. Why don't you come to a meeting and pose the question? www.alliedclimbers.org
Josh
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:39am PT
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"If experience matters at all, those with the most experience at Woodson, and the perspective decades of climbing and seeing it evolve brings, should have more sway over a decision like this. Perhaps the first person to toprope it should be the only one to make the call.
If experience has no bearing on the issue, it follows that the opinion of the youngest beginner, or even a non climber carries the same weight as that of the veteran local who's clocked more hours climbing on Woodson than anyone."
I agree, to a certain extent, but if he was going to blow off everyone who hasn't climbed there as long, he should have said so in the original post. To ask for opinions, then as soon as people disagree discount them because they haven't climbed there as long is, well, kinda lame... In addition, I wouldn't exactly count myself as the "youngest beginner, or even a non climber." Neither would I count the guy who has climbed there for over a decade. There are a million arbitrary ways one could decide whose opinion holds more weight. My point is that he's making an illogical argument. If he doesn't want opinions other than his, and he's going to use illogical arguments to discount varying opinions, why did he even ask?
Josh
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apogee
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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"Why don't you come to an ACSD meeting and ask what people think instead of posting on the internet."
That is a great idea- there is a very active, invested climbing community in the San Diego area, and floating an idea like this face to face would be far more responsible. I doubt very, very seriously you will find wide endorsement, but at least it's being completely up front about it.
Leave the stone alone. If you place those bolts, there is going to be a strong objection to it, and they will undoubtedly be chopped. (Repeat ad nauseum.) In the end, just like at El Cajon Mtn, the stone will bear the scars of a really stoooopid argument, scars that will stand forever.
Leave the stone alone.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:14pm PT
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"Just because a rock exists, doesn't mean we should bolt it to satisfy our egos."
I've been bouldering at Woodson since 1975, and absolutely love the place (don't get there very often anymore, as most of my family have moved away). And while I am very much against casually placing bolts anywhere--and maybe especially there--I don't think the question of placing bolts on a potentially leadable face automatically means someone's ego needs stoking. Just adding my two bits to suggest steering clear of assumptions and polarities.
Tom Patterson
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:19pm PT
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Are you really saying that the mental difference between leading and TR'ing has nothing to do with ego?
Josh
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apogee
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
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Tom is probably right that inserting the 'ego' argument is a sure way to inflame the issue and create more divisiveness- personalizing arguments tends to make people head for their defensive bunkers and very little of anything productive tends to come of it.
Instead, keep the discussion focussed on the issue: does UP need bolts? How does the local climbing community feel about it? How would this retro-bolt fit in with the historical ethic of Woodson? How does the FA party feel about it?
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 12:48pm PT
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Alright, that's a good point you have. I'll try to stop bringing it up.
I believe that it has been soloed, but by another Chris. I remember it being mentioned in Dave Kennedy's guide (the first one?), but I believe it was Chris Knuth (spelling?). If anyone is really curious, I can try to look it up when I have time but it won't be until tomorrow at the earliest.
As far as I know, the area is intensely rich in its soloing history. "Highball" could be substituted, but I'll just call it all "soloing" for now. I've heard that Driving South was a solo FA. I've seen pictures of Hear My Train a Comin soloed in sneakers. Tom used to have his massive solo circuit. It's a beautiful style of climbing for the area. The routes are just the right height that it is truly committing, but short enough to get "wired." Personally, being inspired by that history, I've developed a solo circuit out there that slowly expands. I appreciate the history of the area, and enjoy having a similar experience. Uncertainty Principle is on the list of routes that I've considered soloing. It is a very hard and dangerous solo, so I've avoided it so far, but the bar is there. Can I raise myself to it? Who knows. Whether or not I do, I appreciate that the options are binary: TR or solo.
As for the rock itself. It is one of the most visually stunning boulders in SD, and it is viewed by everyone hikers and climbers alike. It is pretty enough to be the cover art of Kennedy's first guide. For such a short climb, I personally don't find marring the face with bolts warranted. What is it, 40' tall? Not only that, but once you have bolts they are eventually expected. When those bolts fade, new ones replace. Repeat, repeat, repeat. How many holes will the face have after 100 years? Not everyone reuses bolt holes.
Most importantly is that chopping is a true concern at Woodson. While I personally would feel they don't belong, I wouldn't chop them. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't have passed a threshold of someone else. Bolts out there do get chopped when people feel the don't belong. SD County is emotionally charged when it comes to that issue for sure. A face that beautiful deserves to avoid a bolt war. Even the chance of one taking place should be incentive enough to not bolt if you respect the rock at all.
If someone wants the "lead" experience, they can drop a static line from the anchor with loops tied in it for clipping quick draws to. No harm no foul....
Josh
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