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climberweenie
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 20, 2005 - 04:43am PT
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Are people who worry about too many bolts really worried that their isolated spots with high price of admission (runout) will suddenly become over-trodden by lame-asses that they're trying to get away from? That's fine if that's the real reason, but just call it like it is. Say "I think the door should be closed behind my ability level". Just like the rich city folk who think that the small towns to which they run for refuge should be closed behind them.
Besides, if you don't like the extra bolts you can skip them. But damn, there goes the opportunity for seeking external approval, because people won't know how many bolts you skipped. Hey, that could be a new sport, sort of like keeping track of your handicap in golf. "Hey Jimbo, what's your handicap?" "I'm minus 6 bolts for 18 pitches."
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can't say
Social climber
Pasadena CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 09:33am PT
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Your user name says it all dude.
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the Fet
Trad climber
Loomis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 10:03am PT
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Anyone who writes the asinine, oft-repeated "you can just skip the bolts" should be whack-a-moled.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Sep 20, 2005 - 12:17pm PT
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Yeah, that's the stupidest line in climbing... "Just don't clip 'em..."
I think the retro bolts on Eunuch need to be chopped and that Marty guy who placed them is a jackass. And the guidebook author that quoted that worthless garbage about the Faggotway is an even bigger jackass. Ethics? What ethics? I'm a guidebook author! This will SELL!!!
But that's for next year. Whaddayall think? Should we have a little community discussion before AC goes back to work?
(still stirring…)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:10pm PT
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You're on the right path, but it isn't "just don't clip them", it's "just don't climb them" - just a matter of scale really, but it's the exact same option back at you. Your handicap? "I've bailed six times from xxxx, three times with wet drawers."
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addiroid
Big Wall climber
Long Beach, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:19pm PT
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Or you could just wait until you develop the SACK to climb something that committing. Face it, you are climbing much harder now than when you started right? So the argument goes that eventually you will be good enough to climb that runout route right? Well wait until that time comes instead of 1/2" gridbolting everything.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
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Addiroid, your post made my day. Fuçkin' A!
Shall our paths cross, a free beer has your name on it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:08pm PT
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Climberweenie,
Addiroid is using a highly technical term here: S.A.C.K. is an old school acronym for:
S.trength
A.bility
C.ontrol
K.nowledge
All four are typically developed over years of fertile practice and squirreled away in a small pouch in your pants until needed. Never squander such hard earned jewels, or as John Prine put so elegantly:
"...they can't be boughten.
They can't be won at carnivals for free.
Well it took me years to get those souvenirs,
And i don't know how they slipped away from me."
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:20pm PT
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I worry about people with little experience, and knowledge about climbing history and ethics...buying a new bosch going out to their local spot and spraying bolts everywhere because it's easy. With the amount of new climbers and the current evoloution of the sport I think this is a justifieed fear.
Take for instance, a week or so ago a guy came in to my gym, said he was from southern California. Didn't look like your typical climber...more like a dude who "rolls the strip" if you know what I mean, which is fine. Anyway, he's asking questions about my gym and I'm focused on giving him good customer service, then he starts asking about equipment rentals...
At this point he has let me know he is a climber and climbs alot down in So California, so I am a bit confused that he is asking about rental gear and ask him, "you don't have your own stuff."
He replies, "naw, I don't have shoes and stuff...but I had a bolt gun, but I lost it...which sucks cause the thing cost like $400."
hmmmm...I'm thinking about how to direct the rest oif the conversation....and decide to just play dumb. "Huh, so what do you do with the bolt gun?" I ask.
"Oh, I go up and put bolts in blank faces on rocks in my town."
"hmmm, cool" I say. Not sure whether or not to take the guy seriously, but for some odd reason I sorta believed he was actually telling the truth about his bolting activity.
So after that I pretty much dropped the subject not wnating to start an argument with the guy, or cause him to feel stupid in my gym. But it's conversations like these that scare me. And it seems they are becoming more common, both in person and on the internet. Probably most of it is just BS, but for every guy sparying BS about slamming bolts in all over the rock, I bet there is at least one guy out there actually doing it.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:26pm PT
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Lambone, you own a gym. You are directly responsible for churning out the very n00bs you fear. Your complaint is hollow.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:29pm PT
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"Probably most of it is just BS, but for every guy sparying BS about slamming bolts in all over the rock, I bet there is at least one guy out there actually doing it."
Several up this way unfortunately...
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:32pm PT
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yea, I would close the gym... surely, you are contributing to the ignorant and uneducateds random bolting of every inch of virgin rock.
Funny part is that we already went through this in the 80's. Maybe there should be an application for a Bosch like handguns, that way only those deemed qualified could bolt a pitch, assuming the chosen line merited bolts according to a review committee, and had not been previously fourth classed in the 70's by a 5.7 climber.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Lee NH
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:34pm PT
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I was in a shop in CO back in the day, shooting the shite with Pete Takeda, and a dood walked in and wanted to buy some cartridges for his bolt gun. Pete asked what kind of bolt gun do you have. The fool says "the same kind as in that Stallone movie. I forget the name."
Pete said to try the gun store 'cuz they were sold out.
True story.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:38pm PT
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If actually encouraged people to go out and bolt their own routes, then I'd say my gym contributes to the problem.
However my view is that we give people a fun place to get a good pump and learn how to climb safely and properly.
I think someone edjuacted in my gym, or other good gyms around the country is much less of a overboltopia threat then some ignorant ingnoramous out teaching themselves the ways of climbing.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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Sure. Let me guess--your gym has padded floors and the draws are 3' apart in the lead area. I'm going to guess there's no area to learn to place gear in your gym, and no runouts anywhere. You are instilling the belief that climbing is always safe, whether you want to or not.
I don't blame you. I'd do it to appease my insurance co and keep injury claims down too.
But pardon me if I don't take you seriously when you complain about 'sackless weenies making climbing safe' or something like that when all you offer is a grid bolted lead cave and toproping, and that's people's introduction to climbing. You're in the business of making money, not teaching people what climbing is really like. If you did, those draws in your gym would dangle farther apart.
BTW, I started in the gym.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:04pm PT
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caughtinside,
where did I call anyone a "sackless weenie?"
"I'm going to guess there's no area to learn to place gear in your gym, and no runouts anywhere."
Firts, we have two very high quality cracks where you can place lead gear if you want to, quite realistic crack climbing if I may say so....the best cracks I have climbed in Southern Oregon anyway. You wouldn't be able to fall on your gear however, since the cracks are only made out of concrete. yes, gyms do have limitations.
Second, our ceiling is 27 and 1/2 feet tall. Do the math and you realize that the draws need to be fairly close together to prevent people from decking. Go to your local 27ft crag and see how far apart the bolts are...if there are any, most cliffs that tall outdoors are merely highball boulder problems. But we cant have people bouldering up to 27ft in our gym now can we. They can however fall from our boulder at 14 ft, which is still pretty high up. Most of our draws are spced 5 ft apart, btw...usually if they are closer it's because it was the only place to weld the anchor into the steel framing.
"You are instilling the belief that climbing is always safe, whether you want to or not."
Not true whatsoever. First we have people sign a waiver form that says in about 10 places that climbing is dangourous and they may die or become seriosly injured climbing in our gym. Second there are "CLIMBING IS DANGEROUS, CLIMBE SAFE!" Signs hung all over the gym. Third , we tell people about the dangers of climbing and risks they takes and how they can minimize them in our belay and lead tests, and all classes and programs.
"You're in the business of making money, not teaching people what climbing is really like."
Again not true, right now I am in the business of losing money, however we have only been open two weeks and hopefully things will pick up. Second, it is my goal, my passion, my mission to teach people as muc about what "real climbing is like" in this simulated environment as posible. Don't believe me, come see for yourself. But until you have try to ease up on the assumptions.
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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
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"Ignoramous' teaching themselves" I believe your speaking about me. R.R.'s Rock Craft in hand I headed to Joshua Tree with a bag o weed and $100. Bag in hand I bartered for gear and when I had to I payed for it. Learning to climb in a gym is souless. Turning your hands into hamburger is far more fulfilling.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
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no, I was talking about dude with "bolt gun".
yeah i tend to agree that climbing outdoors is more fullfilling. thanks for trying to shed some enlightenment.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:11pm PT
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Well, I am ok with a little disagreement.
But, my assumptions are all based on my experience learning to climb in a gym. And that experience included zero edjumacation from the gym staff/owners about ethics, bolting and the like. Of course, I wasn't a big enough sucker to pay for their lead classes or some 'intro to outdoor climbing' class.
It's funny the things you hear in the gym. I talked to a guy who gym bouldered v7 about going outside, and he told me that trad climbing was crazy, since you had to rely on gear you placed yourself. Sheesh.
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
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"Ignoramous' teaching themselves"
Ah -- the good auld daze.
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