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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 2, 2009 - 01:54pm PT
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Forgive my non-climbing post....but I would appreciate your collective help and wisdom re: depression.
I have a person very dear to me who suffers from depression and negative thinking. In all respects, they are one of the most giving, caring, gentle
and kind soul I have ever met .... 99% of the time they are one of those
people in your life that make it better. The other 1% seems to shadow all
light and beauty ...the one drop of oil in the gallon of water. Being a fairly positive and upbeat type I try to help. I introduced them to climbing 3 mos. ago and they love it.
My question(s):
My reaction is to offer encouraging words and "pep talks" , is this a good thing ?.......Seems it ultimately has not much effect.
What is the best response to things like: " It's just how I am" ,or " I feel like I bring you down"...?
Again, I would appreciate any of your thoughts on how to help.
Thank you in advance.
SD
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Leo Gokovski
climber
AZ
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Hi, Ground up,
Sorry about your friend.It is most unfortunate. I would like to emphesice the difference between feeling "down", an emotion we all experience to some extent and the medical condition "depression." If it is indeed depression, It is usually originates in a chemical imbalance in the brain. Thus, medical attention may alleviate some of your friend's symptoms.
Remember, however, that there are many conditions that may cause depression. Your friend may need to see a qualified individual to assess him/her.
On the other hand, many athletes who go from being very active to a sediment lifestyle (for example, due to injury) suffer from period of "feeling down". Researches have shown that physical activity inhances the production of chemicals that "makes you feel good." An abrupt stop of a very active lifestyle inhibits the "production" of those chemicals, thus causing "feeling down."
Since you know the person, you may do some assessment yourself, and suggest your friend to seek professional help, go running/climbing with them, or other avenues of action.
Hope this helped and best wishes for your friend
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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I think lots of people jump on the chemical/medication track without exploring more basic stuff. I don't want to discredit the role of medication, but it seems it should be the last resort.
We each make choices in life. Some of us don't realize we're making choices, and perhaps that's a place to start with your depressed friend. Call them out on it when they say self-deprecating stuff:
"Hey, why are you choosing to be this way? Wouldn't you rather be happy? Don't you think you deserve to be happy? Or is this just the way you like to be happy?"
That might trigger a conversation that explores whatever the issues are for the person.
We can't control what happens to us, but we can control how we respond to stuff. We might have unpleasant thoughts or emotions, but we can choose how much we let those thoughts and feelings be in the driver seat... do we want to sit around stewing all day about someone who was rude to us in the morning, or say "so what" and let the insult slide off us like rain drops on a flower petal.
When you go climbing, do you say "oh no, there's a cloud over there... that bolt looks too far away... there's so many people here... this rock is too rough... this rock is too smooth... my harness doesn't have enough padding... it's too cold... I have to go pee..."
Or, do you say "this place is rad! I'm glad I'm right here right now!"
It's a choice... choose wisely! And if that don't work, break out the thorazine.
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Just tell them that you are there if they feel they need the help, in any of their personal endeavors....
I would assume that that would give them the option of requesting further assistance, when they might need it.
It open you up to possibly much more than you might be willing to do for them, but at least this will give them the option.
But then again, I'm not entirely sure that a person suffering depression would have the ability to request the assistance, due to the nature of the depression beast. For instance, they might not know why it is they feel this way, they might like to have the 1% of depresso, in order to have the other 99% of good feeling, happiness, and wonder of living.
Again, all you can do is put it out there that you are willing to help if they feel they need it.
Good luck with that.
Post Perusal Edit: Kinda ditto nutjob!!!
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Beatrix Kiddo
Mountain climber
Littleton
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Pep talks come off fake and self serving at times. They do nothing more than make the one talking feel good because they offered up some sound advice and encouragement. It sounds like your friend doesn't know what's causing the depression. Unless you can help them identify the problem, there isn't going to be anything you can say that will make them feel better.
My prescription: Climbing, fantastic morning boom boom and Prozac. Yoga helps too.
and ice cream
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Word. Nutjob, you are spankin' it today. :)
Food for thought: 1 chemicals (20th century)... circuits (21st century) Or, chemistry (20th century)... circuitry (21st century)
Neuroscience and electronics engineering together show this is the way its working out. For the brain's mind.
2 In life circumstances, there are a lot of "depression agents." So these (as environmental inputs, a sucker punch by nature, a betrayal by a loved one, e.g.,) can lead to the "imbalances" (circuits out-of-whack, perhaps later reinforced by reiterating memories)... and just knowing this can sometimes help.
(1) Augh, forget it, it's too much trouble. "Life is trouble, only death is not." (Zorba) (2) "Life is managed, it isn't cured." (Phil McGraw)
Idea: Search for whatever strategies, activities, approaches to life, etc, (which amount to inputs to the brain) you can get hold of (both short term and long term) to kick your brain circuits into other modes of being. Not easy. To say the least. But it's a path to try.
EDIT 1:09: New girl, exercise, sports, medicinals, change of city, change of job, Moonlight Ranch East of Carson City, cognitive therapy, etc... all examples known to serve this end.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I can offer some advice through some very bitter personal experience. I am natuarally optimistic and positive, and never considered myself a candidate for depression. Nonetheless, about 15 years ago (in my early 40's), I found myself unable to concentrate and, frankly, unable to work. The ennui passed a couple of weeks later, though, when I got a new, big, case, and I assumed I was just a bit tired or, perhaps, low on excitement.
That same listlessness returned with a vengeance, however, starting around 2001. By 2004, I was virtually incapable of doing anything at all. I would only climb two or three times a year, I stopped riding my bicycle, playing the piano (which, as my wife observed, is like breathing for me), became quiet, withdrawn, and felt overwhelmingly vile and unworthy. It still never occurred to me that I might be suffering from depression.
It was only after I decided I couldn't stand practicing law any more -- and did some amazingly bizarre things to make sure I wouldn't -- that I finally sought professional help.
There was no external stimulus for my depression; it was entirely endogenous -- A true chemical imbalance, according to the MD's who examined me. I have been on an anti-depressant (Effexor)ever since, and that, plus help from a therapist, my family, and many, many, friends, brought me back to normal.
As others have said, there is a difference between the medical condition of depression and just being down over events in one's life. The big point I want to make is that the person suffering from depression often does not recognize that anything is seriously wrong. We feel as if we just can snap out of it and get back to our "normal selves." In fact, we cannot.
I also suspect that depression is a problem that hits the climbing community quite hard. When I was an undergrad, Joel Grube (a Berkeley climber in the late 1960's and early 1970's who I now believe is in the state of Washington) did a study for his social psychology class that found an almost perfect negative correlation between self-esteem and climbing ability, i.e. the lower one's self-esteem, the better that person climbed. I also suspect that the rather great numbers of suicides among top climbers manifests depression as well.
You touch on a topic that few people want to discuss openly. I'm happy to do so because I want to save as many as I can from going through what I went through. I would be happy to go into more detail if you wish. Just send me an email.
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Meds suck! I don't know what cures women but the only cure guys really need is to have a good lover. Too bad shrinks arn't all smoking hot and available. they would have a 99% success ratio. If a guy is getting laid and he is still depressed then maby its time to think about meds.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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groundup: If you encourage your friend to seek professional help, you might also volunteer to join them in their first visit. You might have some people that you could recommend to them in order to give them an easier time of choosing between tangible options. Depressed people often need simple, clear choices.
On another note, Tami's warning about not getting too close to them is worth paying attention to (though I don't know if she and I are saying that for the same reasons). What often happens is that a more "up" person can begin "over-functioning" in the relationship, and the other person begins "under-functioning" because you've taken responsibility for their lives for them. The line between where they begin and end, and where you begin, gets blurred.
That's really cool that you care about them, and really important that you make sure they take responsibility for their own well-being.
Just my two cents as a non-therapist who's been a lot of folks through the years struggling with depression.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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tradman, I assume you are saying that with your tongue firmly in your cheek. Unfortunately, too many people believe just that. They find it somehow unmanly to seek or need professional help for depression, when they have no trouble (and no guilt) seeking it for other illnesses.
True depression is a medical condition. While meds might not help everyone, for some of us, they remain absolutely essential. I need my medication every day, and expect to continue taking it the rest of my life. I feel no shame in this. I'm ill, but this treatment works perfectly for me.
John
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Hey SD,
I have dealt with severe depression my entire life. These are my thoughts based on my experience. These are only my thoughts, your results may vary.
There are many types and levels of depression. Most of my experience is with chronic, severe depression. If this doesn't fit your friend, then you can probably ignore lots of what I write. If they have situational depression, which means they are depressed because their dog died, then skip this post. Otherwise...
First off, the question of "does it bother you" is probably serious. Throughout this I will say probably because each person is different. You will have to judge for yourself where you think this person is coming from. In my experience, What is likely happening is that the person recognizes they are depressed and wants to know if you are "okay" with that. By "okay", I mean a range of things, from the extreme of "will you bail simply because I deal with depression and you don't want to?" , to " I don't want to be a bother and I will try to shut up if it really bothers you".
The best answer is the one that is most honest for you. If it bugs you, but you can deal, then say that. If it bugs you and you are not certain you can deal, then say that. If it bugs you, and you can deal, but only a little, then say that. If it doesn't bug you, then would you please explain how. hahaha... If you really want to be this persons friend, then let them know you wish they weren't depressed, but its cool if they are ( as long as they don't think this means they can be a dick, haha ) Truth in that, because it is important to set some sort of boundary so they don't overwhelm you and you decide the friendship is too much trouble. ( I am talking here about people who are dealing with long term chronic depression. ) This might happen anyway if they turn out to be a dick, but that happens to everyone and you can't treat them different just because they deal with depression. This will usually be reassuring to them and should help you, as people like to know where they stand. Just make certain to update the boundary if you are feeling overwhelmed by their problem. Or they just might decide to kill you, you just never know. Just kidding.. heh heh.. But anyway, to deal, Just say something like, "look dude, could we leave the depression at the base of the climb? You can always pick it back up when we are done climbing, I just need a little break. " Or something like that. That can work. The best thing you can do for them is appreciate who they are, but not let their depression drag you down. These are the best kinds of friends and are most welcome. Just make sure you don't spring it on them at the base of the climb as they might just walk off.
Yikes, man,, this is complicate sh#t. It doesn't fully have to be, once again it depends on the person. I am just trying to give you the beta so that you can be prepared.
The next thing is if they are dealing with chronic depression and not situational depression, ie, their girlfriend left them and they are temporarily hurting, then you will not be able to jolly them out of it. Please give up trying. They might try to force a laugh and that will wear on them more then you can imagine. If you drop the expectations, then you might be surprised at how often they will laugh and enjoy themselves.
As far as what nutjob says about it being a choice in how they respond to the situation. I agree up to a point. If he can laugh after he breaks his leg in 3 places and is 20 miles from anywhere while laying in a pile of red ants and its sleeting, then he is a better man then me. Some days the depression wins, some days I do. I take meds and before I got hurt, I use to run, ski, climb, swim, hike, backpack, surf and all sorts of other things. I could run 6 minute miles over any trail. So I got plenty of exercise. I tried every sort of therapy you could imagine. It is not just about feeling blue. It can be much more then that and a bit of jollying is just not going to work, though Tami and Ouch always make me laugh. Except for her website, which I just don't get. haha. ( Sorry Tami, I will go sit in the car. )
One of the worst days of my life was when I was standing at the top of a perfect powder run with no tracks in front of me, and I just didn't want to do it. There was no joy in me. I was trying as hard as I could to enjoy the day, and had taken 3 runs before this in that effort, but just wasn't feeling any joy. In fact, every muscle in my body hurt as that is a common symptom of severe depression. I couldn't force, it just wasn't there. Depression can get like that. That day the bear ate me.
Thankfully I have had days when I ate the bear. Yeehaw !!! Hopefully your friend has those days to. Enjoy them and don't let the bad days hurt you, because if this person is dealing with chronic depression, then they will have bad days.
I am sorry if this sounds harsh. It is just the way it is.
Oh and yes, and if they haven't gotten professional help, then encourage that. It might not stop the depression, but they can learn coping skills.
If you need more advice, then you should probably email me, as the natives get restless if threads like this go on too long. I would be happy to try and help. Or if the natives don't bother you, then post away.
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I have been through a few rough times and INMOP it is better to change your circumstances than it is to pop pills. I even had a doc lay out those choices for me once and it was a big help. He bluntly told me that I could keep doing what I was doing and he could perscribe me pills or I could change what I was doing. If you keep doing the same things and getting the same result then the meds are all thats left to try. If you change your circumstances then you have a chance of beating it without the meds.
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Lots of good stuff here.
One concept, phenomenon, that hasn't been mentioned yet: chronic situations and thus chronic situational depression. Some "situations" that humans get themselves into don't go away in a few days or weeks. They and their depressing circumstances can last years if not a lifetime.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Tradman, I have changed every thing I have done in life, from diet to exercise to training my thoughts, to acupuncture, hypno therapy, magnets, flower remedies, allergy treatments, meds, sex, alcohol, and on and on I could go. Some of those things helped a little, but none completely banished the depression and none put any kind of dent in the worst episodes. I found that depression is cyclical. Sometimes I don't even need threads. Other times I end up in the hospital. Everyone is different.
When I took meds, I had every kind of side affect you could imagine. A couple of meds gave me temporary bouts of amnesia. I would drive to town, then realize I didn't know who I was or where I lived. I would look at my drivers license and know that it said who I was and where I lived, but I didn't know what it meant. Usually I just slept it off in my car as the drugs wore off and so did the amnesia, but the first half dozen times it was very interesting. Thankfully I had a lot of experience with that from when I did copious amounts of drugs and alcohol. haha. See pops, there is some use to those years.
Anyways, I think you are correct in part. You should keep looking if you aren't finding solutions, and I do agree that drugs can be hard on the body, but sometimes they can be very helpful.
Final thought. Most folks will laugh at me, but my best answers have been found in coming to know God. For me God is real and inside of me. That has been a source of strength.
Ciao baby.. laugh if you want. I know some of you will now think I am loonier then a tune. Doesn't matter to me. It is helping me.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Moosie, thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply.
I really want to understand this issue better, to see where the line is between medication being needed versus other ways of dealing. My mom was diagnosed manic depressive before I was born (was prescribed Lithium at one point), and these days she takes meds to balance her moods. Apparently she went through a bunch of doses/types working with the psych before finding ones that seem to work well for her (others had weird side effects).
I want to latch onto what Footloose said re: situational depression. I think this can come up when people find themselves living a life that is not congruent with what their heart and spirit want. Examples might include being in a marriage or a career that are not a good match for the person.
Some people might want to seek meds because that is easier than rebuilding your life from scratch and abandoning everything in your life to which you may have your identity anchored. That takes courage, but it also takes some luck in finding support and guidance that points you in a healthy direction that resonates with your inner sense of what you need.
That said, I don't to dismiss the very real results that can be achieved with medication. Maybe there's more than one way to skin a cat?
Edit: Heh, looks like I should read the latest posts before replying again!
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Gene
Social climber
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Didn't read every post. But, by all means, your friend or any of you who are depressed, it's a very real thing. It suck the vitality out of you. It's so messed up.
That said... Most medical professionals seem to want to put a depressed person on meds. Meds work. BUT, getting off the meds can make the initial illness seem like a picnic. The meds work by altering the chemicals in your squash. In spite of what the drug companies say, you can become addicted to the meds. Effexor XR is a popular anti-depressant. Google "Effexor withdrawl" for an education. The stuff is messed up. I hate that crap, but still take it. I go seriously nuts without it.
Gene
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bluNgoldhornet6
Big Wall climber
Tampa, Fl
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Your friend should seek a well known qualified therapist in their area. They must be able to let everything go and talk about EVERYTHING! The best thing you can do is to stay supportive make sure their family is aware and maybe even try to find a therapist for them. Another one is try to keep them away from alcohol, because it is known as a depressant and can making their negative thoughts 20x's worse. The therapist will know after the first session if they should speak to a Doc about the Meds. Depression is almost all chemical and the person may need the meds to balance out their happy juice.
I have suffered from depression for quite some time and in the past it got so bad that I wanted to make the worst decision ever. My family was fully aware and I told them that I did not want to be alone and told me to put myself in the hospital. I Baker Acted myself last year a 4 day psych evaluation and got to speak to a professional. Once I got on track with doc visits and meds I got my life in order and that’s when I found climbing. Climbing helped me out so much after that that I decided to stop my meds, Bad idea! Depression does not just go away some may need meds for the rest of their life. This time around it really kicked me in my a*# and I have been out of the game for 3 almost 4 months now. I have gone back on the meds and have been seeing a therapist on regular basis. Slowly but surely everything is getting better.
The morale of my story is for you to make sure your friends is okay by all costs, help them! Make sure he or she has no suicidal thoughts or "plans". Keep your friend busy and active. Tell them to eat healthier and drink lots of water. A healthy diet = a happy person.
If your friend has any thoughts of suicide ask if they have a plan. If they do you must take them to the hospital right away! They will appreciate it after they get back on their feet, and you saved a life! Do not hesitate to ask, you want them to be safe. The crazy house is not all it's cracked up to be so don’t worry about it.
I hope that this helps and your friend gets better.
God Bless
Matt
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2009 - 05:57pm PT
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Thank you all for chiming in on this ..... my sincere appreciation to those
who give insight from painfull personal experience . I myself rarely suffer
from even getting "bummed out" so I can only try to understand . It's easy for me to be in a funk and shake it as soon as I tie in or click into my bindings , heck , I can usually just talk myself happy. I am trying to better
understand someone who can't do that ...
Thank you to those of you who have difficulty doing that for sharing your personal insight, struggles and successes with what must be a real biotch. My goal is not to "fix" this person , but to better understand and maybe just be a better friend. Certainly there must be value in that.
I am learning some things here......thanks
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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What works for me is
Zyprexa
Wellbutrin
Xanax
What has made all the difference is Testosterone Replacement.
I think its lack was the cause of all my problems. I feel less depressed and feel twenty years younger.
I have not been to the Valley for years but that is going to change real soon.
Juan
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Gene,
I started on Effexor XR, went to Effexor IR for cost reasons (the latter is available as a generic, so although it's still fabulously expensive, my co-pay is significantly less). I haven't tried to see what would happen to me if I went off Effexor entirely. All I know is that I no longer have chronic depressive episodes, and have been my "old" self for several years. About the only side effects (after the first couple of seeks) have been rather vivid, and very entertaining, dreams.
One other comment on depression. It involves recovery, just like any other illness. In my case, Effexor alone did not bring me back. It took an effort over perhaps a two-year period, but I firmly believe my recovery has been complete, and would not have been with just therapy.
Unlike John M, I well remember what I was like before my depression manifested itself. That gives the two of us different insights. In my case, it puts in sharp focus what I lost (my wife and I figure about $2,000,000 in income, and that's the cheap part of the damage). That may also explain why I have no desire to be weaned from my medication.
John
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