Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 28, 2009 - 09:49pm PT
|
In 1908 Oscar Eckenstein is credited with "inventing" the modern ten point crampon when he publishes a formal paper on crampon design and technique promoting their virtues. The following year he publishes another.
Two years later, Henry Grivel in Courmayer, Italy begins to produce crampons commercially to the Eckenstein specifications to supply the growing English market.
The research that I have done credits Laurent Grivel with adding the front points to produce a twelve point design in 1929.
I wonder if these ten point Grivels without the extra set of toe points are the missing link?
Any crampon freaks lurking out there that can point to an earlier appearence of front points on Grivel crampons???
|
|
Erik of Oakland
Gym climber
Oakland
|
|
|
Apr 28, 2009 - 10:40pm PT
|
dunno, but I'd like to hear the answer
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
Apr 29, 2009 - 03:34pm PT
|
Steve-- tx for the pix. I've not seen 10pts like those, nor references to them.
The CAF's 1934 Manual d'alpinisme shows traditional orientation 10 pts., but does briefly mention the 12 pts. as a recent innovation.
I've also not seen many pix of 12pts in action-- most of those I've seen appear to date from the mid-1930s.
Does Grivel keep an archive?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2009 - 10:16am PT
|
Curiousity Bump!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Hi Steve,
As far as I know (but I must ask Betta Gobbi at Grivel on this) there was only one ten point model produced by Grivel BEFORE 1929, and it's really the one of your picture. The model was in fact produced on the same specs well into the 70s (I used to own one pair). So yes, that's the missing link.
I'll ask Betta the next time we talk.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2009 - 10:03am PT
|
Thanks Luca!
Please ask your friend if he (she) knows when the Eckenstein name stopped appearing on crampons from any manufacturer. I don't think the Grivels incorporated it into their crampons at any stage.
Cheers!
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Hi Steve,
I'll ask that, she must know. I agree with you that the Eckenstein name was never used by Grivel on their crampons, but I'm just wondering if Eckenstein crampons were indeed ever commercially made on Courmayeur before the Grivel brand was born. Don't think so however.
Few picture of the Grivel family (courtesy of Antonio Passaseo)
The Grivel family in 1929 - Henry in on the extreme L, Laurent on the extreme R
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/5959776
Laurent in 1971.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5959576
Laurent in 1973.
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/5891569
I'm old enough to have met him (I was just a kid) he was an extremely intelligent and good natured person, very perceptive and keen on listening on other people opinions. He was also very popular with his friends (and clients - he was a mountain guide of course). The last picture show him in the Grivel old mountain hut in La Suche, high above Courmayeur. You may notice Laurent is looking at something, and here's the panorama from that room's window
http://www.panoramio.com/photos/5766201
(but one can think he was just considering the mushrooms...)
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
Luca, your photos are "fordidden." Any idea when CAMP started making crampons? I know their ice axes date from the mid-20s and wonder if they made crampons then too.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2009 - 11:42am PT
|
How much documentation remains of the early cramponing competitions that Oscar Eckenstein organized to promote the new technology? The Grivel site history mentions them.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Ain't No Flatlander:
>Luca, your photos are "fordidden."
I've changed the link, they should work now.
>Any idea when CAMP started making crampons? I know their ice axes date from the mid-20s and wonder if they made crampons then too.
CAMP started producing ice axes in 1920 - the first commission was for six axes for "Brigatti", a climbing shop in Milano. After that they started producing material for the Alpine Troops of the Italian Army, but this did NOT include crampons. I've had a long and very interesting chat on this subject last weekend with Guido Cassin, the son of Riccardo (and for three decades the manager of the Cassin climbing gear production). He told me some fascinating stuff (which I'm not sure I can relate here - I'll ask), but from what I understand, Camp did not start producing crampons (10 points) until the late 30s. That's another interesting question I can make some research on...
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
>How much documentation remains of the early cramponing >competitions that Oscar Eckenstein organized to promote the new >technology? The Grivel site history mentions them...
Yes, I believe there's material (and even at least one picture) in the Courmayeur Guides Museum archive (they've piles of fascinating stuff which they make public on an infuriating slow rythm!!). I'll there check next week!!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2009 - 10:36am PT
|
Competition bump!
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2009 - 10:29pm PT
|
These Eckenstein 12 point crampons were presumably made at about the same time and are much heavier in design and material.
Better steel may account for some of the Grivel weight savings but I have to wonder how many distinct foundrys were producing crampons at this time and the extent of communication between them on design issues.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2016 - 02:03pm PT
|
I have confirmed from conversations with Gary Neptune that Grivel was advertising 12 point crampons at least as early as 1930 well ahead of climbs such as the Eiger nordwand.
I have also come to understand that as people were climbing increasingly steeper ice then the front pair of vertical points on ten point crampons became beefier and the process of strengthening these points certainly contributed to the notion to not bend them over during fabrication. The pair of Grivel crampons in the OP I believe were designed for glacier travel and less technical ice where the occasional bit of front pointing might be encountered so this particular design was driven more by ease of fabrication than anything else.
|
|
carlos gallego
Ice climber
Spain
|
|
|
Jan 10, 2016 - 09:44am PT
|
I agree, Steve. Maybe, the "next step" was "twisted points"... like these Grivel ones:
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2017 - 06:42pm PT
|
A pointed discussion...bump
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2017 - 10:46pm PT
|
Though that design started this conversation it is pretty clear that it is a general use crampon and not the missing link with respect to the evolution of front points. More of a lightweight glacier walking design.
It is noteworthy that Salewa twelve point crampons saw a lot of use on steep ice with a front point configuration not very different from the crampons shown in the OP.
|
|
TLP
climber
|
|
Climbing content bump. It's amazing the climbs Welzenbach and others did using that gear. With no genuine pro and crummy axes besides, sheerly on balance and brass balls.
|
|
hammerhead
Mountain climber
Eastsound,Wa.
|
|
It might help the discussion to clarify a few metalworking terms.
A ''foundry'' is a place where casting is done, forming a part by pouring molten metal into a hollow mold.Little if any climbing hardware is made by this method.
A ''forge '' is where a part is formed by forging, the plastic deformation of metal through the use of force or impact.
In hot forging the metal is in a hot plastic [ but not liquid or molten ] state. The force is applied with a hand hammer on an anvil or under an open die power hammer . This causes the metal to move into the desired shape by the skilled manipulation of the material under the hammer by the smith. Think of this as similar to manipulating clay or soft dough into shape.
In closed die forging the hot billet of metal is formed by impact between top and bottom impression dies under a drop hammer or by being squeezed by a powerful press.
Most pitons are formed by hot forging the head and eye in a closed die and the blade is drawn out to to final dimension by a skilled operator under an open die hammer.
Ice axes and hammers were traditionally made by forging.
Carabineers are formed by hot forging in a closed die press
Forging usually will give the strongest part for a given amount of material .
''Forming '' is where the part is cut from a metal sheet or plate and then bent either by hand or in a closed die to the desired shape. This can be done either hot or cold depending on the gage of the material.
This is how angle pitons , bongs and Leeper style piton are made.
The crampons at the start of this thread and most modern ones are made using this process.
The crampons with the twisted front points were made by forming and the front points forged out to the wider curved shape, most likely by hand.
The Eckenstien crampons above look like they were made by a combination of forming and forging with the front vertical points added by forge welding the points to the formed frame by ''forge welding'' where the two parts are heated to welding temperature [about 2400 F] and joined in a solid state weld by the force of the hammer. This is a highly skilled operation that was once common in any blacksmith shop before the advent of modern welding techniques.
These crampons could also be forged completely to shape from a piece of flat bar with the points isolated by a process called fullering and then drawn out .
To make these to size this would be an exacting job for a skilled smith, usually working with a helper.
This would be more common with a small scale operation [ like a mountain village blacksmith ] where labor was more available and less costly than material.
In modern industry skilled labor is usually more expensive and less consistent than the material so cutting and forming a piece out of a large sheet with the attendant waste is more cost efficient.
Usually in all of these processes there was a certain amount of heat treating that followed the shaping to relieve stresses in the metal or to improve hardness or mechanical properties.
''Fabricating'' is where various parts are joined either by welding or mechanical fastener[ bolts, screws, or rivets ] This allows large and complex shapes to be made using parts that are formed by either forging, forming, casting or cutting.
Understanding how things are made is helpful in coming up with a timeline of how various pieces of equipment were developed.
|
|
| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!