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| Messages 1 - 19 of total 19 in this topic |
Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 27, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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I'm getting the time to read through Chongo's wall technique books and I see that the holding ratchet on the 2:1 haul setup can be done is a few ways: (1) Compound pully, (2) ascender / pulley combo or (3) a rope clutch. No mention of using teeth as a hauling tool mentioned in this text.
Whoever uses this system [Read: PTPP], what do you use for the holding ratchet? I kind of like the rope clutch; keeping it simple plus I don't need to worry about bending the compound pulley rope sleve out-of-whack with a too heavy load. Happened to me once during a 1:1 space haul. Needed to replace the Wall Hauler.
Thanks.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Jun 27, 2008 - 06:02pm PT
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The 2:1 can prove very useful for climbers weighing less than a buck fifty, or for the first couple days on a really long seige.
Using the protraxion for the holding ratchet keeps your system streamlined if you plan to switch back to 1:1, which most do for efficiency sake, as the bags get lighter. That way you just put the rope through the hauler before you start leading and the 2:1 is just a separate ratchet setup with it's own 6mm spectra rope that gets clipped directly to the main biner on the hauler--only bummer with such a 2:1 is you can just squat haul as you have to mind the holding ratchet with one hand and push the jug back down the haulrope with the other--but it's dead easy with amazingly big loads.
I don't do a lot of big load climbing these days, but Pete's on the wall for a couple weeks so figured I'd chime in.
best
e
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 28, 2008 - 10:07am PT
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Thanks Nanook.
I'm also reading in the Chongo books to use a non-static haul line. I've always used a static haul line, but Chongo's reasons for not using a static haul line make a lot of sense. Plus I like the idea of having a potential back-up lead line available.
We hauled on the Nose, in the moderately ancient days, with an old lead line because (1) the load was fairly light and (2) we didn't have a static haul line at the time. However, this was not exactly a Hudon / Jones ascent.
Are many folks going to the non-static haul line now to avoid shock loading the station?
Thanks.
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
Yonder
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Jun 28, 2008 - 10:11am PT
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There's no reason to shock load your 'station', no matter what kind of rope you have.....I use a static haul & lower out with my spare lead line.....
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Jun 28, 2008 - 03:23pm PT
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Sawin, That picture above is not the best setup. Read what Nanook said above.
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Jordan Ramey
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jun 28, 2008 - 03:58pm PT
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Here is a good cartoon. I think PTPP drew it, especially since wee-wee the wall crab is in it and it sounds Canadian, eh?
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Jun 28, 2008 - 04:47pm PT
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ChrisW,
My point exactly, thanks.
Jordan Ramey,
Good for goofy rigging? Actually it could be ok with a
change to the lifting assembly and the static haul line
provides no mechanical advantage and could be removed
keeping the 2:1 advantage.
Were it says lifting ratchet cord just above were it says
lifting assembly a prusik or ascender could be applied to
back up the load(s).
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jun 28, 2008 - 05:27pm PT
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Sawin,
That pic is a 1:2, not a 2:1. You foot has to push twice has hard as the pack weighs. Might be useful for speeding up the zip line to avoid arm cramps, but I sort of doubt it.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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Jun 28, 2008 - 06:21pm PT
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Moof,
picture were it says clip pull down handle with the pig
being 500 lbs. There is 1 line attached to the locker above.
Another side of the line is attached to a pulley on the locker.
The static line attached to the locker is holding 250 lbs. as
is the side of the line to the pulley attached to the same
locker.
How much weight is the lifting ratchet side pulling
with the 1 line crossing the pulley sheave to a
250 lb. side of the line? Is that not 500/2 or 2:1?
To answer the questions it is 2:1 tackle (pronounced
taykle).
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Jun 29, 2008 - 10:57am PT
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That's surprising Gunkie. I would say from some experience Static is a safer bet.
Sawin, would that setup work with some short of block? A knot that slips but locks?
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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ChrisW,
No, the tackle is the mechanical advantage created with the
pulley's pictured which are used as a block for the block
and tackle.
An ascender perhaps with a small come along device could be
used in replacement of the prusik loops. I usually tie a prusik
with a grapevine which also may not be considered a knot, though
a hitch?
Of course this is not going to be marketed to the recent Nose
record holders.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Moof,
> That pic is a 1:2, not a 2:1. You foot has to push twice has hard as the pack weighs. Might be useful for speeding up the zip line to avoid arm cramps, but I sort of doubt it.
Good point. Doh! No wonder I had so much trouble holding onto the rope on the left side. It definitely did not speed things up.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2008 - 09:03pm PT
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That's surprising Gunkie. I would say from some experience Static is a safer bet.
It's just what is written in the Chongo big wall texts [use dynamic line for hauling when using ath 2:1 mechanical advantage].
It seems to me that a fully loaded dynamic line would act kind of like a static line anyway, if all the stretch has been removed.
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ChrisW
Trad climber
boulder, co
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I really don't want to bump this.
How's is this related to speed climbing?
I said static (11m) is better then any dynamic rope because of cutting factors over sharp edges.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oh, hi. Just got down from summit, where I used a 2:1 today hauling a huge load up the summit slabs while Kate "ushered" the pigs upwards. I'd have been dead without the 2:1, that's for sure.
Anyway, to answer a few questions and stuff. Ask for more details if I don't answer what you need:
1. The "rope clutch" in Chongo's book is a Grigri. Since he is suggesting "non-traditional" ways of using the device, he didn't want to identify it by name so if you died using it thus, he wouldn't get sued.
2. You can use virtually any type of "holding ratchet" you want when operating a 2:1, it matters knott. You can use a Wall Hauler, a Mini-Trax, a Pro-Trax [POS], a Kong Block-Roll [ETS], an inverted ascender, or even a Garda knot if you can find some of those ancient MSR [is it?] ribbed ovals, it won't matter a whit to your efficiency. It just holds the rope, right?
3. Chongo's book says that the 2:1 won't work with dynamic rope. Actually, it will. Kate's haul line that we used today is dynamic, and I didn't notice any real decrease in efficiency. Maybe cuz our pig was so heavy? As long as you set up your 2:1 correctly, it'll work OK [but not as well] on dynamic rope. Only a BWT would use a dynamic rope on a wall. [Um, hi...]
4. Speaking of which, Sawin ought to try his design and see how well it works. It is a good idea to practise hauling bags of rocks at your local crag, prior to setting off on a big wall. This way you know you can haul enough food, water and beer to "win by attrition" - it works for me.
5. Mike Clelland! drew the cool diagram you see above for a Tech Tip at Climbing Magazine.
6. There is no rule 6!
7. You need two pulleys and a hunk of STATIC cord to make your 2:1. Use the ~5mm Spectra stuff. Make sure you place your "good" pulley on the top, as it spins twice as fast. You can use any crappy pulley on the bottom [on the inverted ascender] but you ought to buy a proper high-quality [expensive] pulley for the top.
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2008 - 12:05pm PT
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Thanks PTPP.
I'm in wonderful Burlington ONT this week. Drove through Oakville in an attempt to bypass that highway [QEW?]. Trafalgar Square looks just great and the old Ford plant has seen better days.
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sawin
climber
So., CA.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete,
glad you had an enjoyable time.
I have approximately 20 years and 100's if not
1000's of hours with 15, 16, 25 and 35 ton cranes.
I have limited time just a few hours with a 65 ton
(nice it has a joystick instead of multiple levers).
I never had to use tackle with the cranes. I've used tackle
multiple times suspended off a Tyrolian line in terrible
conditions and used it with come a longs on the ground.
I still need to get up the Captain for my 1'st time.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Well, if you do want to get up the Captain, don't bring the hauling system you show above!
I don't understand why you have a round turn of the rope around the carabiner, however if you replace the round turn with a pulley, and attach an inverted ascender to the end of the sling in the photo, and clip it to the haul line, you will have a 3:1 hauling system.
Playing with cranes sounds like great fun! You could be like Fred Flintstone working in Mr. Slate's quarry.
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