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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 28, 2005 - 04:04pm PT
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I think it is no overstatement to say that the entire SuperTopo community was deeply saddened by the deaths of the Japanese team (Mariko Ryugo, 27, and Ryoichi Yamanoto, 26) during the severe spring storm October 17-20, 2004. (The only other team to previously freeze on the Nose, eerily enough, was a team of two Japanese climbers, 20 years to the week.) There were several threads active throughout the rescues and in the days that followed, each seeking information and possible lessons. There was much speculation and some (to my mind) terribly irresponsible comments made (criticising YOSAR's decision making, etc. The worst comment was "why didn't anyone go save them?!", asked by an El Cap veteran who should have known better and should be ashamed). Wiser voices advised patience, that the facts would finally come out, and the analysis should await the time when all the facts were on the table. (WBraun: "Lots of questions are being asked, wait till everyone is back and Link or someone else will give a full report.")
I think now that that time has come. YOSAR has posted a report (although I believe a more complete one, tailored to climbers, is in the works). Personally, I want to learn what I can from the tragedy and successful rescues (Dave Turner [Tempest], Tommy Thompson and Eric Ericson [NeverNever Land],unknown[Salathe]) and successful self-rescues (bails?) (PTPP [Born Under A Bad Sign], Ivo Ninov, Jason Pickles and Leo Holding [attempted free route starting in the Eagle's Way]). Why did some die and some not, what works or does not work, what does the experience of those involved (both climbers and rescuers) teach the climbing community?
It would keep this thread tight and on topic if you would read the report on Friends of Yosemite Search and Rescue and the other treads on this topic before you add your two cents.
Friends of YOSAR (http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=59763&f=0&b=0);
Are the El Cap folks OK? (Melissa's thread was the first one on the topic)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=45362&f=0&b=0
Question for Werner (PTPP's thread asking for Werner's insights)
(http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=58916&f=35&b=0);
Getting Plucked off El Cap (by Tommy Thompson, who was on NeverNever Land during the storm and was rescued)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=45776#msg46030
Some of the lessons that came out of these threads:
(1) Be prepared for the worst possible weather. Tommy felt that the quality of their portaledge (A5 Cliff Cabana with a 4 season fly) saved their lives. Bivouac sacks may be lifesaving, even if you have a portaledge with a fly. Tommy said everything was soaked very quickly, despite their top quality ledge. See his thread for more info. The fallen team had sleeping bags, bivi sacs, a tarp, and a stove, but no portaledge, no waterproof coat/pants, at least the woman did not have warm, synthetic underclothes. Not all climbers know that "worst possible weather" includes the fact that your bivi site may in fact be the site of a waterfall, even with just a slight rain. The Japanese team's final bivi site, Camp VI, is a known drainage route for much of the area of El Cap, and becomes a veritable waterfall in even slight rains. An unfortunate choice when a big storm hits, and that alone might kill you, even if you have the best of equipment. (I was at Camp VI three days after a rain and the waterfall was still flowing!)
Yosemite weather is notorious for sudden changes. The week prior to the storm was t-shirt climbing weather, which turned out to be a lethal suckerpunch for our fallen Japanese colleagues. Listen to a weather forecast before you blast, but you still need to be prepared for bad weather (unless you believe that the weatherman has never been wrong...)
(2) Communication equipment with backup is essential. Cell phones have the advantage that your communication is not limited to those on the ground, but is limited by fact that you cannot get service on all parts of the Captain. Family band radio (TalkAbout) will always reach to a ground party. Inability to communicate doomed the Japanese team and contributed considerably to the successful rescue of the other teams. Also, consider that the rescue teams can make better and safer decisions if they know you are OK but need help as opposed to will die if you don't get help right away. Tommy had a TalkAbout, the Japanese team had no communications equipment.
(3) Have a designated ground contact person, who will be in contact with you on a regular basis and can interface with YOSAR should that be necessary. (Will compensate for communications failures, etc)
(4) YOSAR folks did a hell of a job, were on top of the situation from the beginning, and were strongly praised by all those who were rescued. Their recommendation: keep your trap shut with criticism until you know the facts.
I would appreciate any input from YOSAR, those involved, and experienced climbers who have been in similar circumstances, as well as anyone who wants to add to the analysis.
(Sorry about the long post, but the topic is rather serious. Thanks in advance for not flaming, let's keep this a climbing thread.)
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 04:23pm PT
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Generally speaking……
“keep your trap shut with criticism until you know the facts.”.
David, criticism without known facts is alright, generally human nature.
That’s why we have forums.
“Family band radio (TalkAbout) will always reach to a ground party.”
Until the batteries go dead!
Lol, We had one once where Lober’s talking this guy through of what he should do to get himself out of his jam when the guys radio goes dead. Kinda like tech support on the phone.
Good write up my friend and yes a lot of good lessons can be learned.
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Southern Man
climber
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Jan 28, 2005 - 04:37pm PT
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Another perspective is the recent R&I article. I, like many others on this site did and have kept up with this story since it started unfolding. After reading the recent R&I article, I must say that I've gained new information about the rescue that reinforces my admiration of those involved, both rescued and rescuer. I thought Pete Takada wrote a good article. IMHO.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2005 - 06:40pm PT
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Thanks, Werner. (I have met you only once, but it was during an El Cap rescue! Luckily, I was an observer, not the rescue-ee.) I agree with "until the batteries go dead", which is why I said in my post "with backup." Not only can the batteries go dead but the unit could be hurt in a fall. Backup the critical systems. Luckily, a second TalkAbout is light and can go in the bottom of the safety kit stuff sack.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jan 28, 2005 - 08:39pm PT
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"Someone needs to be held accountable if poor decisions were made."
What happened to the Japanese team was a tragendy. Still...
None of us are a priori entitled to a rescue.
If you climb El Cap (or anything), you accept a certain risk of death.
If I die in the elements on El Cap, it is my fault and my fault alone because I choose to take that risk.
If YOSAR ever saves my ass, I'll be eternally grateful to them. I still think that it would be a gift, not a right, to get a needed rescue.
I don't think that YOSAR should be factored into peoples risk-mitigation plans. Assuming that if the weather goes hellishly bad, your chopper should be waiting (or else someone besides yourself will need to be held accountable if you freeze) at the first break in the weather, whether you've communicated a need for rescue or not, is what holding YOSAR accountable for not going up there sooner amounts to IMO. If it leads people to be less prepared than they might otherwise be, then it's doublely bad.
I don't want to have to get a permit or pay to climb a wall in Yosemite. Giving out unsolicited rescues for overdue or bad-weather parties by mandate makes that kind of individual surveylance and regulation necessary.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jan 28, 2005 - 08:44pm PT
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that's a fair argument. I suppose they can only begin a rescue if specificaly asked by the climbers? I don't know...
everybody knew those guys were f*#ked up there, it wasn't a question of if they needed a rescue or not. Their friends knew they were in trouble.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2005 - 08:53pm PT
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Lambone,
Thanks for your reasoned reply. We are all trying to learn from this.
With respect to PTPP's comment (I was not going to identify him, but since he is your bud and you did, I will go with the flow), he made it on Oct 24 at 9 pm. This was well after the posts by Link and Werner, stating that rescues had been undertaken, which would also imply the timeframe at which they were conceived and initiated. Their posts were on Thurs, Oct 21, which would imply that the planning for the rescues was going on on Tues at the latest and possibly Monday. Remember, the rescue was initiated without any request for help from the Japanese climbers and due to the conditions, would take more SAR personnel than were on hand in Yosemite. This is a heavy decision, to expend this much effort, involve this many people (eventually 110 people were involved), and subject all the rescuers to a lot of hardship and risk. If the climbers had been well-equipped, they should have been able to survive until the rescue Wednesday.
If the comment was meant to rhetorical, OK. If it was meant to be critical (and that is how I and many took it), it was off base. In hindsight, YOSAR had been monitoring the situation from the onset of the storm, Sunday, Oct 17. If I had been one of those struggling with the decision to launch or not, I would have felt stung by that comment.
My two cents, you can probably get change, for what it is worth. I don't want a flame war, I just want to learn.
{For those reading this long after the original posting, some posts above have been removed by their respective authors, after learning a bit and feeling squeamish about what they posted earlier. Makes it hard to understand the thread. -David Nelson, March 4, 2005)
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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OMG…. unbelievable I’ll just take one of Lambones examples:
“Also:
"Mid-morning (about 1100 hours) on Tuesday, a decision was made to intervene without a clear indication of distress from the Japanese team and no know request for assistance from them. We began setting up a management team and devising a plan."
“First off, that time is false. Why because I was still in the lodge drinking coffee at 11am. At 12am we drove to the meadow and they were still setting up the PA.”
In one of my other posts on a different thread I said there were many things that Lambone was unaware of. Do you actually read??
The 1100 hours is the official time recorded in the log to start. You now have to call your people, get them ready to go in the field. The 1100 hours is not the time you log when your people are at the scene! In your case when YOU saw them first show up.
There’s a lot more but it’s not worth it for me and it’s not my job, plus I’m not going to step over chain of command.
Lambone, seriously you need to get all the facts from the know. That means call the office and GET IT FROM THE RIGHT PEOPLE.
I’m finished with this, say whatever you want I don’t give a sh-t. This last statement is directed to you only to you Lambone.
Good Luck
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:01am PT
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You gotta be on crack Lambone. Even if a SAR team were to make a mistake during a rescue, it could never be of the same order of magnitude as assuming ANY climber has the right to get rescued. Let's see, you said, "Someone needs to be held accountable if poor decisions were made". How about starting with all those climbers who assume that if they get up sh#t creek they'll get rescued? Then climbing itself is the "poor decision." End of story.
Melissa has it right - a rescue is a gift of life from many other human beings putting their own lives on the line, and is certainly not something we're entitled to.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 29, 2005 - 01:41am PT
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The moment you tie in and head up a rock wall, you and partner are just as you came into this world, and just as you will leave it: on your own.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 29, 2005 - 02:22am PT
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I believe the main accountability in rescue operations should be that the supervisors of rescue operations should be accountable for the risks that they put the other rescuers through. I think Yosar has a good record in that respect. It's the first thing you learn in EMT and other Emergency Med classes: Assure the scene is safe.
Well on El Cap after a storm it's not safe, but they make the best call they can and I'm not willing to hold their feet to the fire over if they called it right or not. Melissa is right. If Yosar become accountable for why they didn't rescue somebody in time, that is one step away from all kinds of mandatory restrictions and regulations. You'd have seasons off limits to climbing, climber ratings required to do walls (like they have for hang gliding) and fees too.
I can barely even believe that they hike 11 miles in deep snow and then rap off El Cap to go get folks. I'm grateful that the bonus of a rescue exists, and mad props to Yosar.
Sure, after a rescue, the team should debrief and ask if anything could have been safer or done better, but submitting to outside scrutiny and "accountability" is going too far in my mind.
Peace
karl
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2005 - 04:58am PT
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I believe that the issues surrounding this tragedy continue to swirl around YOSAR instead of the root cause: an unprepared climbing team.
It is no mystery to any climber that you take a finite risk when you put yourself into a situation that you are not prepared for. It is one of the biggest risks of climbing in California: the weather is so damned nice. So you roll the dice and you come up a winner... small risk.
The problem is that everyone thinks the risk decrease the more times you go out and don't get into trouble. This is the NASA justification for flying the shuttles prior to Columbia and Challenger: nothing bad happens so the probability is low that something bad will happen. Circular reasoning.
Fact is, every time you roll the dice it's a different game, no connection to the other times. What if you're on a winning streak and you don't know it!
So we learn by finding out what happened in other situations, other accidents, experiences, near misses, etc. We all know, those who care to know, that the weather can turn really bad, deadly, in our usually wonderful California winter. We all know that if we venture up onto the walls we have to be prepared. Sure, you can go up there without all the preparation and win, most times, but you are taking a risk. The tragedy is that what happened to the Japanese climbers probably didn't have to happen at all, if they had been prepared. It is frustrating that once they were in trouble that they couldn't be saved, but YOSAR is there at the end of the chain of events, it was the climbers that started that chain.
I am troubled by these deaths. But I do not know how to avoid such situations, climbers make the decision to launch, they must accept full responsibilities for their actions. It is harsh, but that is the tradition of our sport.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 29, 2005 - 09:09am PT
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It seems to me that there are two separate discussions that should be kept separate.
One discussion asks if either YOSAR or the Japanese climbers had done things differently could the Japanese climbers been saved. It seems obvious, in hindsight, the answer is yes.
The danger here is that there is a very long continuum between inattention and decision making under uncertainty and irresponsibility. The truth of it is that almost always the rather lame--the best decisions were made under the circumstances--sums it up best. I think that David's intent and Lambone's questions are all fair, but no matter how much you can glean from studying the past with a clearer view of the facts as they unfolded, the next time around you are still left with decision making under uncertainty. Those of us who have been through the real time experience and seen the both the tragic and the happy endings have probably grown weary of second-guessing after we have helplessly or hopefully watched the dice tumble to the final outcome.
The second issue is the nature of climbing, personal responsibility, and the role of an organized rescue team. Here the laws of nature are not the issue. The issue is which rule do you pick. On one hand is the banning of all climbing--you might get hurt. At the other end is climb at your own risk--maybe your friends can get you off. Between these two extremes, most of us (climbers, Park Service, the public) sort of agree on a balance. But this is only a rough balance. .
You cannot begin with "Climbing is Dangerous" and end with "Until it gets seriously dangerous, at which point we make it safe." Climbing is dangerous and the skills needed to stay out of trouble and get out of trouble are as much a part of climbing as crack technique or efficient hauling. I subscribe to John's point of view--but he and I are of the same generation and have the same basic views
The connection between the two issues is the unintended impact of simply asking questions when potential tragedy and uncertainty dance. Second guessing YOSAR's decisions, whether it is David or Lambone, can only lead to a more restrictive balance on what climbers can climb and when. (I want to repeat: David and Lambone are both honorably and reasonably asking valid questions.) This doesn't sound reasonable, but it is the natural outcome of combining uncertainty with shifting responsibility from the climbers who chose to climb to the YOSAR team that is left with the choice to intervene.
So, my advise, take these issues up with the folks at YOSAR. Werner did not get to be an old, experienced climber sitting in an armchair. He knows what he is talking about.
Best, Roger
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Jan 29, 2005 - 10:47am PT
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I don't pretend to know anything of the facts, and I know that an obscene amount of self-introspection takes place within SAR after every operation, successful or not.
Smart post, Roger. I think that post (along with Largo's and Melissa's) shows that a discussion like this veers into a question of the philosophy of climbing, which leads to conclusions that make only individual sense. Conclusions like: There shouldn't even be a SAR; or, a radio might be the last thing to take, because a wall is an escape from contact; or, a team with two bags, two bivi sacks, a tarp and a stove is travelling too HEAVY, and would've summitted a day earlier if not bogged down.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jan 29, 2005 - 11:11am PT
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Hey Yo:
I agree with your point completely. It seems to me that some of us, no one in particular, don't work out the consquences of the paths we choose. Without meaning to, we want to change our minds after the low probability event with sever consequences actual occurs.
Climbing the Captain should always include a clear, private understanding that you can actually die, in full sight of everyone, through nothing more than a misunderstood message lost in the wind or a decision that the odds are in your faovr if you go 8 oz. lighter.
Edit: I just reread Melissa's post: I repeated what she has already stated.
Roger
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 29, 2005 - 11:13am PT
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It's also a good thing to keep in mind that Yosar doesn't not exist simply to rescue climbers and that many of their rescues are for hikers and other users. Most climbing rescues are also straightforward.
Pulling folks off El Cap is another story. The weather that came in was far more severe than predicted and, even if in hindsight there might have been a window to pull folks off, you can't be sure.
That element of uncertainty was wisely explained by Roger above...Nice post.
So the other side of this is, if Yosar gets extra bold and 5 guys die on a rescue someday, what will the consequences of that be for Yosar? for regulation of climbers? How will we look back on that and what will the "Could have, Should have" talk be then?
Just food for thought. I agree with Roger that the folks asking questions are reasonable but that the questions, if too loud and too official, could have consequences for climbers.
Peace
karl
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2005 - 11:57am PT
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I stressed in this thread and in the other one where this discussion was taken place that if one needs to know the full information they need to contact the SAR office. The report posted on the web site may not make sense in some respects (Time lines - chain of events - unanswered questions) that is when inquiry to the proper channels is required.
I’ve been on incidents in the past where I too did not understand some of the timelines and chain of events as they where happening. Even the official reports didn’t make sense. There are events going on in the background that we are unaware of at times, this later, after inquiring through the proper channels, became clear
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Jan 29, 2005 - 12:05pm PT
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Yeah, Roger, part of all us (and it varies in each of us) WANTS stuff to go bad. It's not a death wish, certainly, but we're looking to cut it close, again, to a different degree with each of us. Otherwise we'd give up climbing.
How about when we find ourselves in a jam (no bivy gear, no headlamp, no #4 cam, jammed ropes, storm, off-route, hurt, whatever) and it seems so suddenly clear, in that moment, "How F-ing stupid am I?" And two hours after that, in the bar, it's equally clear how great it all was.
Roger, you can call me Ryan if you really want to. ;)
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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Jan 29, 2005 - 12:26pm PT
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First I want to let David Nelson know that I and Erik were technically rescued from Never Never Land. I refered to our rescue in my trip report as Octopussy because that is the route we had originated on. (Octopussy joins Never Never Land at pitch 15)
It is very unfortunate for Mariko and Ryoichi that they had not survived through this storm. There is NO ONE to blame for their misfortune but themselves. I say this with the utmost respect to them and anyone close to them. I feel they simply made poor decisions about how to deal with the situation they were in.YOSAR was simply trying everything they could to help get them out.
I was very grateful for YOSAR to help me out of our situation on Never Never Land (Octopussy.)I would have NEVER expected their service. In fact I will go as far to say that I never thought that I would ever need their service. But I'll tell ya "I am grateful for what they did for us." I was freaking hungry and wet, and it would have been days before Erik and I would have been able to get ourselves out of there considering the snow conditions above us.
We as climbers and humans have to accept resposibility for our actions. Even if it means death. Mariko and Ryoichi chose to climb El Cap, there are inheirent risk's involved with climbing the Captain. There should be not one bit of criticism towards YOSAR for trying to help them. Just as Melissa said YOSAR is a gift.Fortunately Erik and I were able to reep the benifits of our gift. Let's not screw that up with speculation or what if's. I don't ever want to have any regulations put on climbing El Cap. Could you imagine the park service saying Nope there is some thunder showers predicted at the end of the week, we are not issuing permitts until this passes. Criticism and education needs to be learned through us as climbers not what YOSAR was trying to do. I have said it before and I'll say it again "Werner, Link, Lober, YOSAR Thank you for being able to get my sorry, soggy, hungry ass out of there."
Tommy T
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BigSky
Mountain climber
Big Sky Montana
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Jan 29, 2005 - 12:31pm PT
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Largo wrote:
The moment you tie in and head up a rock wall, you and partner are just as you came into this world, and just as you will leave it: on your own.
JL
If only more climbers actually believed that when they set off, instead of carrying some courage in their Motorola.
Just read the story about you cracking ribs and putting a hole in your helmet having to piggyback that big guy down Washington Column. The picture was priceless!
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