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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 18, 2004 - 01:25pm PT
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There has been a lot of talk on the forum over the last few years about how hard this climb is and whether the good folks at Supertopo got it right in the book. I climbed the pesky rascal last week and am here to give my opinion. But first- the climb is a great climb and I'm going back as soon as I can lead every pitch.
The pitch ratings are in my opinion all right. If it says the the hardest move is 5.8 it is. The catch is that almost every pitch is relentless. Just hard. For instance on the Wilson Overhang pitch after the 10a move it stayed just about as hard for another ten ft. and then there was 5.8 wide section which I couldn't figure out so I bypassed by laybacking a flake just to the right which led into a cool steep 5.8 2" crack. Even the 5.6 pitch was continuous and steep ( and really fun).
The time is where Supertopo is really off. My partner and I did the East Buttress of El Cap in 12 hours car to car. We were not racing yet we still came in right in the middle of the Supertopo time estimates. My partner led all the hard pitches on the climb. Then we climbed the East Buttress of Middle Cathedral. Approach 45 min. Climb six hours and decent 3 hours which was because of the snow and water in the decent chasm. Even with the long decent we came in at the middle of the Supertopo times. We swung leads on this one and even with my slow leading we came in at six hours for the climb. On the SS we left the car at 5 am. and we topped out as 8:30 pm. There was a party ahead of us that may have slowed us down a half hour. So the total time, approach and climb, was fifteen and a half hours which is six hours more than the longest time suggested by the Supertopo. It took an hour for me to follow the Narrows but the rest of the climb went fairly well. We had one rope, one bullet pack and one camel back. The decent took us longer than expected. It's dirty and, in places, exposed. We were told by several people not to decend at night and I agree with that and we didn't. Fortunately, it was a beautiful night out and warm for 7,000 ft.
The theory stated elsewhere on the forum is that if you know how to climb wide stuff that you should be able to cruz the climb in the Supertopo six to eight hours. But by that criteria the times for EB of El Cap and EB of Middle C. are way off. Anybody who does the SS in six hours is going to do EB of Middle Cathedral in three to four hours. Actually it's inexplicable to me that the SS is listed as taking six to eight hours and EB of M is listed as taking eight to nine!
My guess is that Chris and the Supertopo gang were cornered back behaind the Camp 4 boulders by the Gods of Yosemite Climbing and forced to leave the sacred time of six to eight hours in the book exchange for raising the overall rating to 5.10b. Fortunately, since new Supertopo books keep coming out we know they survived the encounter and are keeping up the good work.
See you on the rock.
Zander
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jacs
climber
Colorado
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Jun 18, 2004 - 03:59pm PT
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People calling the Wilson Overhang the crux of the route has to be the cruelest sandbag of all. It's not even the crux of the pitch!!
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 18, 2004 - 04:10pm PT
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re."...I'm going back as soon as I can lead every pitch.
The pitch ratings are in my opinion all right."
No offense intended at all...but, if you can't lead the pitches can you really accurately judge the difficulty?
I know that my own experience has been that I only trust my internal guage of quality, difficulty, etc. on terrain that is well with in my redpoint ability. Otherwise it's all sort of pointless speculation no?
SS looks PDH to me but my wide crack skill suck.
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David
Trad climber
San Rafael, CA
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Jun 18, 2004 - 07:54pm PT
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Ugh...give a thirteen year old a computer and I guess that's what you get. Go back to your PlayStation bra.
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ricardo
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jun 18, 2004 - 08:01pm PT
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I think the time estimates on the supertopo are for parties that can confidently lead in the range (for that climb) ..
.. so if it took you way longer to climb SS than what supertopo says -- it just means that the climb was at the limit of your ability ..
 ricardo
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2004 - 01:48pm PT
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I hesitate to jump in on yet another SS thread, but what the hey, this one brings up a few new things.
Zander:
1) the impression I get from the "Yosemite Climbing Gods" when they condescend to speak to me, or rather, when I eavesdrop on them unawares, is that they think the whole Supertopo thing such foolishness that they would not bother cornering Mac to negociate for the contents of his book. It is one of those things that doesn't even deserve mention, like the toproping guide some losers from Colorado put out a few years ago.
2) The times given for each route in the Supertopos are extremely subjective--that's why the old method, of calling each climb a certain grade (III; IV; V; VI) seemed to work better. One would climb a grade III, then decide whether he wanted to try for a grade IV, or climb a few more IIIs. I don't even bother with those grades--I look at at the amount of pitches, consider how many of them are difficult (again, this is different for each person), and decide what time I should get up to do the climb, if I can do it at all. The list of climbs I haven't attempted because I'm not sure I can get up and back in a decent amount of time is staggering. I am saving them for when I think I can. Kind of like wading through a plate of Brussels sprouts knowing that there's ice cream for dessert.
3) Some contend that the overabundance of beta in the supertopos sandbags more people than the scant (?) beta in the Reid guides. If experience and judgment were relied on more than someone else's beta, there might be fewer folks griping. The only way to get experience is to climb a lot. See the end of point #2.
4) don't despair! SS was being done in as little as three hours (I believe--Frost and Robbins? please correct if I'm wrong) in the late sixties. Their gear was heavier and way more jingus than ours today. Someday you will look at your first time on SS and laugh.
5) have fun!
Ben Wah
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 19, 2004 - 06:44pm PT
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It should be noted that all Ben's objections to supertopo are the exact objections that folks had back when we went from the green Roper Guide to the Yellow Meyer's topo book.
I don't know who the Gods of Yosemite are anymore now that it's hard to live here and folks like to road trip around more, but, if the folks freeing and speed climbing El Cap can be grouped in the divine lot, I can tell you that they tend to tick every hold, know every placement and have far more beta lined up than any supertopo. Getting a little gear fixed in the right places is likely more common than not.
Probably there are exeptions though
As for Steck-Salathe, there is little doubt that 90% of the folks who head up there are suprised how hard it is for the grade and find it takes them longer than expected, and 10% are relieved that it's not as bad as folks moan about. I've done it about 4 times now but if I go up there and I'm kinda off the couch and out of shape, I'm a useless corpse the next day.
Peace
karl
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Jun 21, 2004 - 06:45pm PT
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Last time I climbed SS (my 5th time up the route, I think) we took about 11 or 12 hours car-to-car. I think the descent is one of the tougher descents in the Valley, especially if doing it "on-sight."
But I've never paid much attention to times, except when using the Skinner guide to Red Rocks. Then I multiply the approach times by a factor of three, and get a reasonable estimate for me and my chrome-plated walker.
Brutus
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jacs
climber
Colorado
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Jun 22, 2004 - 12:52pm PT
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On a week and a half trip a couple years ago, we climbed DNB, Rostrum, Astroman, and SS. So I would say I'm fairly solid at the 5.9 grade.
It was our first route after pulling up in the Valley, but we left the parking lot at about 5:30am and got back down at 11:00pm. Descent was gnarly in the dark. Topped out the climb at sunset... probably 13 hours to climb the route. Longer day than both DNB and Astroman.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Jun 22, 2004 - 01:13pm PT
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In general I don't find the time beta very useful because it's so subjective. You'll only get sandbagged by it though, if you aren't looking at the particulars of the route and using your own self knowledge and judgement. I'd think it would stating the obvious to say that those times are just suggestions. The first time I climbed After 6 the supertopo estimate was probably faster than us by a factor of two. I don't think that means that Chris should suggest that route takes 1-9 hours to be more accurate (although I wish I'd know where to procure post-epic snacks back then).
If you were aware of the S-S reputation, had some inclination of your climbing speed on old dad 5.9 wide over the course of a grade V day, and you stood at the turn-out and look at the Sentinal, saw where the climb starts, and then glanced at your Supertopo, and said to yourself "Cool, 9 hours" (roughly the same on-route time that you speant on the E. But of El Cap)...well...perhaps you made a bigger mistake than the supertopo?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 24, 2004 - 09:01am PT
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If descending Sentinel barefoot is no big deal, I'd love to hear what your idea of a big deal is! Scenes from the movie Midnight Express come to mind.
When you left your shoes at the base of the route, do you mean the approach ramp or the actual climb?
me, I'm a tenderfoot, I brought water sox
Hard to imagine that kinda burly climbing without water too. Are you man or lizard? Me, I'm light, my butt would cramp without enough water.
Or actually I'm not light, that's why the Narrows is a number grade higher for me
Peace
Karl
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bspisak
climber
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Jun 24, 2004 - 08:50pm PT
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Just did SS for the second time a couple of weeks ago. My first time was quite a few years ago. Funny how things change!
Last time, I had trouble with the Wilson Overhang, the wide pitch off the Flying Buttress, and the chimney below the Narrows. But... I remember cruising the Narrows, no pro and no problem.
This time, everything felt good, except... the Narrows where I about puked after yo-yo'ing at the entrance 3 or 4 times then fighting my way up.
My only guess is that I was young, inexperienced, but strong. Now, my technique is better, but I'm not as strong as back then. Anyway, it's a great climb and I feel compelled to go back for 3rd impressions!
Brian
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Zander
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2004 - 01:28pm PT
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Thanks to everyone for your comments on my origional post.
Though, my writing ability may not be much better than "skidmoreshits" suggested because I seem to have left two impressions I didn't mean to leave.
I did not think I could do the climb in 6 to 8 hours like the supertopo says and I'm not upset with the Supertopo folks at all. I decided to climb SS two months after starting climbing, while reading Roper's Camp 4. I just thought it sounded cool. So I've read a lot of info on the climb and talked to a lot of people over the last few years. If anything I owe Supertopo a favor because if the time listed in their guide wasn't so short I probably would not have attempted the climb this year. In fact, until I did the other two climbs within supertopo time I was thinking I would need two days to do the SS.
I stick to my opinion that in the supertopo world the time listed is way to short. Supertopo is geared toward guys and gals like me. Folks with families and/or jobs. Climbers who drive in on Friday night or Saturday morning and are home by Saturday midnight. Who don't have time to hang out in Camp 4 and get beta and maybe find a climbing mentor to show them the ropes. It provides the total handholding- rack size, detailed topo, times, approach and decent info, wether you can pull through cruxes on gear, photes and stories. In this context the time is to short.
"Brutus Of Wyde"'s post probably makes my point better. Here's a guy who has gnarly big wall first accents in the Sierra Nevada, who climbs 10b concrete freeway buttress hand cracks in his socks, who is climbing SS for the fifth time and he does it in the supertopo time. For those who climb at a lesser standard and are doing it for the first time it is going to take longer. Hopefully, not as long as it took me.
I now retreat to my lurker status. Where I plan to start dreaming about Lost Arrow Spire by way of the Lost Arrow Chimney, about which Roper says in Camp 4 they used to consider about equal in dificulty to SS. ;-)
See ya on the rock.
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