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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 15, 2004 - 01:38pm PT
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I have read and heard about the 1978 accident on The Nose in which 3 people died
when a hanger broke and sent them to the ground from the vicinity of Dolt Tower.
From what I understand, a rope was looped over a chain connected to two bolts,
and the hanger (not a Leeper, BTW) broke under the weight of the 3 climbers,
haulbags, ect. One report said a haulbag was dropped, shock loading the system.
I am trying to understand the scenario in which this happened.
I have heard that they were bailing for some reason or another.
The fact that the rope was looped over the chain implies that they were rapping,
and would pull the rope free from the anchors below. So how were all 3 rapping at once?
Why else would the rope be looped over the chains?
Where they in fact using the chain as an anchor and not rapping?
Does anyone know the details of this accident?
Hardman Knott
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Gazzo
climber
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Apr 15, 2004 - 03:53pm PT
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Contact YOSAR. Ask for a copy of the accident/recovery report. They can and will provide it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 15, 2004 - 08:40pm PT
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This was a long thread on rec.climbing a while ago...
topic:
"So ya think it's bomber, do ya? "
"Clipping chained bolts (was:So ya think it's bomber, do ya?)"
and a followup by Brutus of Wyde in the topic a few years later, "Re: He's baaaaaack. ;)" in which Brutus sets up a hypothetical situation to demonstrate the possibility that dynamic loading could cause compromised bolts to fail.
"From: elmar@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Elmar Stefke)
Subject: Re: So ya think it's bomber, do ya?
Date: 1995/09/18
Message-ID: #1/1
references:
organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
newsgroups: rec.climbing
In article ,
Tristan whitman wrote:
>
>I heard a story of three climbers on a big wall, clip into their
>protection OVER the chain (there were two bolts connected by one piece of
>chain) after the third man cliped over the chain, one bolt pulled
>free....needless to say all three went on a 2000 ft. whipper straight into
>the dirt. My suggestions: clip through always! they would still be alive
>if they did. And always always backup your anchor. Climbing is only cool
>if your alive to do it.....:)
This happened on the Nose in 1978. They fell about a thousand feet.
The assumption that they may still be alive if they had clipped through
is a good one, but not necessarily 100%. The reason the anchor failed
(one of the bolts that held one end of the chain) was because of shock
loading from a haulbag (dropped just a few inches by cutting a piece of
sling). The hanger was homemade and could only hold an estimated load
of about 500 lbs. If they had clipped through the other hanger may have
failed also. It's always preferable to clip through, but it may not
be as 'bombproof' as you think.
E.Stefke"
and a reply:
"From: hlehmann@aol.com (HLehmann)
Subject: Re: So ya think it's bomber, do ya?
Date: 1995/09/20
Message-ID: #1/1
sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
references:
organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
newsgroups: rec.climbing
In article , elmar@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Elmar
Stefke) writes:
>>I heard a story of three climbers on a big wall, clip into their
>>protection OVER the chain (there were two bolts connected by one piece
of
>>chain) after the third man cliped over the chain, one bolt pulled
>>free....needless to say all three went on a 2000 ft. whipper straight
into
>>the dirt. My suggestions: clip through always! they would still be
alive
>>if they did. And always always backup your anchor. Climbing is only
cool
>>if your alive to do it.....:)
>
>This happened on the Nose in 1978. They fell about a thousand feet.
... (stuff deleted ).....
> . The hanger was homemade and could only hold an estimated load
>of about 500 lbs. If they had clipped through the other hanger may have
>failed also. It's always preferable to clip through, but it may not
>be as 'bombproof' as you think.
>
Nope. The hanger was a commercially available hanger, less than one year
old, on a 3/8" x 2" bolt. The hanger apparently suffered from *hydrogen
embrittlement*, something caused by failure to properly clean off the acid
bath before electroplating it. This caused small stress cracks, probably
next to the rock where they weren't visible. Just goes to show you, that
bolt that looks beefy & brand new could still fail, even if it is
installed in perfect rock.
Sources: Wilderness Search & Rescue, by Tim J. Setnicka. p.153-157."
"From: bbindner@ebmudnot.com (Brutus of Wyde)
Subject: Re: He's baaaaaack. ;)
Date: 1998/08/31
Message-ID: #1/1
References:
Organization: Interserv News Service
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
> "Göran Nordgren" writes:
> I just wonder; How will you ever apply 1000 pounds
> to the anchor while rapelling?
3 statistics, #1, #2, and #3 backing off a wall.
#1 165 lbs
#2 180 lbs
#3 110 lbs
Pig 1 100 lbs
Pig 2 110 lbs
Pig 3 80 lbs
4 ropes @ 8 lbs ea. = 32 lbs
Rack 80 lbs
total: 857 lbs. With me so far? Now,
let's equalize that on a two-bolt anchor with
a total equalized breaking strength of 9,000 lbs,
add a shock load, and see if we can break it:
Someone puts the main anchor and/or rap rope
AROUND the chain (Breaking strength 20,000 lbs.)
of the two-bolt anchor, rather than *through*
a link of the chain connecting both bolts.
Result: if either bolt fails,
the whole team goes. One bolt is BOMBER, would hold
8,000 lbs. A perfectly-placed new Rawl five piece.
The other is a Rawl splitshaft buttonhead
of unknown length (1.25"), and uncertain diameter (1/4")
(The team is inexperienced with Rawl buttonheads). The hanger
of our "failure bolt" appears in good condition
but slightly oxidized. Actual failure strength,
unknown to the climbers, is 1,000 lbs, quite good for
some of these time bombs.
Someone drops a haul bag (static haul rope), it
goes just far enough to shock load the anchor to
just over 2000 lbs of force on the equalized anchor,
causing failure of the rawl splitshaft.
The rope and anchor system slides off the now-free
end of the chain.
The whole team accelerates at 32 ft. per second squared,
but the aceleration decreasing due to air resistance
as they approach "terminal" velocity.
Anyone remember a scenario vaguely similar to this?
And to you physics-heads, I apologize if some of the
terms and units and concepts are incorrect. (I have to
take off my shoes and drop my pants to count to 21.)
The net result is the same, three grieving families.
Careful out there.
Brutus of Wyde"
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 15, 2004 - 09:07pm PT
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Hardman why do you need this info? I was there.
Werner
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2004 - 01:42pm PT
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WBraun wrote:
Hardman why do you need this info? I was there.
Werner, I am highly flattered, but I must make clear that I am Hardman Knott.
If I can manage not to get myself killed, then perhaps some day I can hang with you...
When I began climbing less than 5 years ago, I bought JL's Climbing Anchors
and More Climbing Anchors. Reading about the accident in the later had a big
impact on me. It's like the worst possible nightmare come true.
Before I had ever placed gear on lead, I spent many hours building anchors
in an area 30 feet over a sandy beach. Good placements were hard to find.
I tested my handiwork by rapping off. The worst thing that could have happened
might have been a broken ankle if one of my anchors failed.
Later I devoured every word from John Dill's preface from the Yosemite guide.
A few years later I heard about the DNB accident involving two very experienced climbers,
one of whom was a regular poster to the newsgroup rec.climbing, whose trip reports
I had enjoyed reading. He had like 30 years of climbing experience, and
was known to be very safely conscious. (Tom Dunwiddie)
The bottom line is that I can't understand why those guys on The Nose had the rope
going over the chain and not clipped in to the hangers. Was there not room?
Was the rope too fat to fit through one of the chain links?
I assume that these guys rapped down to that anchor individually.
I would think that each of them would clip in to the two hangers.
So how and why did the whole show end up looped around the chain?
It just doesn't make any sense.
Edited to add: Was there not a rap ring? Were they expected to leave gear,
but didn't want to? Was looping the rope over chain a standard practice back then?
How was the haulbag-dropping scenario ascertained?
Finish edit
It's chilling how often we hear of long-time climbers dying; sometimes through
taking a calculated risk, (Dunwiddie, Osman, Hershey) sometimes though
unbelievable human error--as seems to be the case here.
I am trying to understand what happened on The Nose. There are many
conflicting accounts on the details, as evidenced above.
Hardman Knott
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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Apr 16, 2004 - 05:46pm PT
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In reviewing this thread, please be aware that my "analysis" was not a speculation on what actually happened, but was simply a reply to the question "how could someone, rapelling, apply over 1,000 lbs. to an anchor?"
Brutus
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 16, 2004 - 06:00pm PT
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Sorry for implying that Brutus' post was an "analysis" of the actual accident rather then a scenario showing that it is plausable to generate large forces via "dynamic loading" of anchors.
However, there is a reference to an analysis in one of the other posts. It is difficult to ascertain "why" anyone would do the things that were done in an accident where there are no survivors or witnesses. Werner can provide reliable "after the accident" reporting in this case. The accident report for this case should be a reliable compilation of facts gathered at the time.
One conclusion which can be taken is that the consequences of your actions on the rock could lead to your and/or someone else's death. It is a responsibility we all accept when we venture into vertical territory. The margins are slim to none, physical laws do not choose what happens, it is our choice to be there and the onus is on use to be there as safely as possible. If you cannot accept the responsibility then you should find something else to do.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 16, 2004 - 06:22pm PT
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Hardman, supposedly it was a Dolt hanger that broke (Werner is that true?).
I've seen 3 different types of Dolt hangers, all vaguely like the old skinny SMC hangers, all pretty rare (think I've personally replaced about 10 out of over 1000 1/4" bolts replaced). However, if there was a chain attached I doubt there'd be room to clip into the actual hanger on at least one of the 3 designs, so that might answer one of your questions. If the chain were too skinny to clip into, that might answer the main question.
I'll go dig for Dolt hangers (I doubt I'll find them quick), if I find them I'll take digi pics and email them to you (yeah, I could also get off my butt and figure out how to post them here, but I'm lazy and I bet you know how to post them).
All assuming that Werner confirms that was the hanger type that broke, I heard that from Tom Rohrer years ago.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 16, 2004 - 07:24pm PT
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This seems like a good time to point out what I've seen a few times with folks tieing into cordalette systems without really figuring out the consequences. I've seen a few folks, in effect, clip OVER the cordalette loops rather than within them. To make sure you are getting within each loop put a finger within the loop at the peice and follow it down to the upper power point.
When you make an anchor with a cordalette, there are two powerpoints, the loop at the bottom after the knot, and just above the knot, where the loops enter. Some folks like to clip in there so they can get some weight on their harness and off their feet and it's a convenient spot to belay the second from as well.
Always run down the consequences of failiure of a part of a system until it becomes second nature.
Peace
karl
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2004 - 07:47pm PT
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...which brings us to the question of whether is always better to have a knot in a cordalette anchor (essentially swapping some multidirectionality for some redundancy).
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Larry
Trad climber
Reno NV
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Apr 16, 2004 - 08:39pm PT
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Here's one type of Dolt hanger.
This was a scary relic when I scarfed it in the '70s.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 16, 2004 - 09:09pm PT
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I'll try get the information to the bolt part fom Dill tomorrow. I was very busy today and had no time.
Best regards, Werner
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Apr 17, 2004 - 04:09am PT
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Yes, it was a Dolt hanger (John Dill told me this
in a conversation some years ago). John Dill happened
to find one of the pieces of the broken hanger on the
ground after the accident. He had the metal/crack site
analyzed, and it sounds like this info was in the
referenced Setnicka source.
The bolts, hanger and chain were placed by Tom Rohrer
when he created the Nose rappel route. At the time,
Dolt hangers were considered state of the art; he was
simply using the best materials available. I do not
recall the exact configuration of the chains involved
in the anchor, but I do recall the bolts were spaced
vertically instead of horizontally. This is a superior
orientation which avoids the "American triangle" and
also minimized the amount of chain needed. I don't know
how many points in this particular anchor could be clipped
independently. The people who died were rappelling down
the rap route.
The accident is inaccurately described in John Long's book.
Clint Cummins
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 27, 2004 - 12:20am PT
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Check out the add by Ed Leeper on page 112 of the June 2004 Climbing Magazine... Ed has decided to call attention to a real problem with his hangers specifically and the more general problem of the type of hanger. This is nothing less then heroic, in my opinion.
Ed called me after I sent him some vintage 1972 hangers of his I had stashed in my "old gear" box. I had sent them after talking to E.C. Joe about the problems with hangers down at Tollhouse. My thought was that Ed could learn something about those hangers. The hangers I sent were fine. We had a long discussion about many things regarding hangers, this was probably 5 years ago. Obviously he has been concerned about the hanger issue. The ad is a demonstration of his good faith in the climbing community and his concern that we all be aware of the risks apparent in using these style hangers.
I post this notice in this thread because Ed brings up the 1978 accident, yet another analysis... forewarned is forearmed. Be careful out there!
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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One from the vault bump. Sad story . . . lessons to be learned.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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I was on NA Wall and saw the team of 3 retreating off the Nose. I was belaying and watched them for a while then began to clean. I took a look a bit later and didn't see them any longer. I found out about the accident when we topped out. 3 guys from Minnesota if I remember right.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Dill sent Tom [Rohrer] to receive anchor system in question. Three climbers did just as the above; all clipped over the chain and not into the links that could have saved their olives. Not the best thing to do. They did not distribute their weights. There was a fracture in the hanger after analysis from a lab.
Tom redid the anchor with stainless steel. You can get a hold of Tom {"Madbolter"] for additional info.
PS: if I recall knowing Tom, he most likely would have taken a photo. *not sure but can ask?
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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So they clipped around/over the hanging chains ? And did not clip into any bolts , chains , or rings attached to chains ?
That seems like such an odd thing for seasoned climbers , or climbers with ambitions of climbing El Cap , to do .
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WBraun
climber
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The first time I went up on El Cap with Bachar he did that to me on an anchor.
He didn't know and wasn't aware until I pointed it out to him.
Then he went "Yikes!!!"
And never happened again ......
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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If Dill did not relay details it most likely will be the same answers, Tom will be back home from the LA marathon in two weeks. Has all the info. Took photos but might not be able to locate them. He said he looked at the bodies and they all seemed to have just gone to sleep with one leg being out of place. He said they seemed to have all [3] rapped off that one Dolt hanger with one biner? which twisted and torqued the hanger. After microscopic analysis there was a small design flaw fracture. I will look to see if I have photos but this would have been a few years before this happened.
Tom will write about it when he gets back.
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