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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 18, 2019 - 01:26am PT
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hey there, say, RJ... say, thanks for sharing a lot of things here, on all this 'updated info' to remind us folks about...
i like it here... and, i am thankful for you and chris, and for
the use of your forum...
i had a few photos that i 'thought could be used' as, to leads, to lead others over to the 'articles' etc, where they came from and a few 'yahoo search' pics, too
which i WAS not fully aware if they were 'allowed to be used' (like free use, search-and-share info, etc...
SO--i just 'followed suit' with what 'seemed to be usual practice' on the
net and and forums...
i took them down, and i am happy to have learned more-- as to all this...
WOW, FROM reading all the new post,
i've seen that it has been HARD on a lot of folks...
(wrinkled the quilt-- though, time i hope, will smooth it)
:)
i wish us all well, here...
and, sure hope to see more good years, with these folks, and
new folks, of the climber community...
again, thank you, for all the info and and for
chris--
to, for providing this site for climbers all over the world...
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 18, 2019 - 03:53am PT
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If you talked to a lawyer on this as you claim, you should go find a new one. Your explanations are so flat out wrong I doubt you actually engaged one. I think you’re lying to cover.
Your actions and justifications here are so low-end. It’s desperate, pitiful and sad to watch - this destruction
+1 to Roy - hosting photos on your own server is a newer feature.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:25am PT
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Tarbuster:
Regarding when the obsolete [img] tag:
Are you suggesting I had another choice in those years [2006-2009]? I'm ignorant of this phrase undocumented and unsupported legacy tag.
I researched this and you are correct.
We introduced the [img] tag first in Feb 2003, and at that time it was the only option for embedding a photo on a page.
The photo upload option was introduced in 2005, but initially only for internal use by Chris and others on the ST internal team. It wasn't introduced for general use by Forum members until December 2008 when it replaced the [img] tag as the only recommended method of placing photos on ST. It was thus, Dec 2008 that the [img] tag became officially obsolete, was no longer documented, and no longer an officially supported feature.
So, bottom line, it has only been 10 years since the [img] tag was deprecated as a feature on this site, and replaced by the photo upload feature.
Unfortunately, the case law changes in 2018 with regard to hotlinking images makes the support of the [img] tag in the way we used to a significant copyright infringement risk, which is why it is now just a link. If the case law changes in the future to once again allow hotlink/embedding of images without incurring copyright infringement liability, we'll gladly revert to displaying [img] tags as we did before. In the meantime, converting to use of the ST photo upload option is a reasonable work-around to continued use of the obsolete [img] tag.
rj
JLP:
I respect your opinion and recognize you have opinions on copyright matters that differ from the expert advice from our lawyers.
I think you've stated your differing opinions, and it is clear we're not going to come to a shared agreement on the implications of copyright case law. That is OK.
JLP, I also accept that you believe I am an incompetent fool and that our lawyers are incompetent doofuses. It is your right to have your opinions and I respect that. But, I assure you that ST is not asking you for legal advice, nor will we prioritize your arm-chair legal pontifications over the actual legal advice we have obtained and have motivated these recent changes on the site.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:44am PT
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RJ, given the info in your above post to Tarbuster, i’ll repeat my request:
Would Supertopo enable linked/embedded photos for one week in order that folks who have been longterm users of this site, could have a chance to [finish] back[ing] up the contributions that they have created and/or appreciated?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:53am PT
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RJ, you wrote:
In the meantime, converting to use of the ST photo upload option is a reasonable work-around to continued use of the obsolete [img] tag.
I still don't see how this statement relates to any option I have to create a workaround to my [img] tags as they exist within the posts of my threads.
I'm not sure you actually answered that question?
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johntp
Trad climber
Punter
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Apr 18, 2019 - 06:59am PT
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RJ I appreciate that you are at least still here, chiming in and dialoguing a little bit. This has really been a sad few days for Supertopo and I hope the owner(s)/Chris understand the damage they are doing to a unique and valuable online community. There is probably a reason most of us don’t understand, and that’s your business, but the fairly quick, insensitive broad brushstroke manner that the images were removed will have consequences to the forum and the way this has gone down is quite disingenuous to your users in my opinion.
Well said. A bit more transparency on the part of the hosts would go a long way towards us understanding what is going on. Lack of information leads to speculation. Understood the hosts are maneuvering legal waters and pending legal action need to say nothing. But really?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:07am PT
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RJ/CMAC:
What did I get wrong here?
I see below two instances illustrating Supertopo staff supporting Fair Use Doctrine, the first in 2006, and the second in 2017.
Example #1:
I did NOT build this trip report which showed up in my trip report cache – SOMEONE from Supertopo did.
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Hip-Sassy-Bouldrin-Thread-old-dadsn-youngsters-rip-it/t354n.html
And it was originally posted as a simple thread by me, on September 22, 2006, and built as a trip report directly by someone on the Supertopo team by harvesting/grafting the material from the original thread I constructed. BOTH threads have the same incept date, which I don't understand, and which is fairly immaterial to my example.
The point being: it appears to me that at this time, you guys were holding this up as a model of the way to behave, no?
Note the first picture in this trip report, constructed by you. It is a well-known book cover which I scanned, Master of Rock, Pat Ament:
http://www.supertopo.com/tr/Hip-Sassy-Bouldrin-Thread-old-dadsn-youngsters-rip-it/t354n.html
The original thread from which the trip report was crafted, as it still exists today, in tandem with the trip report, both with the same date, September 22, 2006:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/256974/Hip-Sassy-Bouldrin-Thread-old-dadsn-youngsters-rip-it
Example #2:
Ken Wilson's MOUNTAIN Magazine #1, all of it scanned and posted here cover to cover, by me, and praised by CMAC on March 20, 2017:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2958309/Ken-Wilsons-MOUNTAIN-Magazine-1-the-whole-enchilada
Chris McNamara
SuperTopo staff member
Mar 20, 2017 - 09:12am PT
Fantastic post. Thank you. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2958309&msg=2958984#msg2958984
The Mountain Magazine was posted in its entirety for educational purposes and for purposes of fostering historical discussion. I stood to reap no monetary gain from sharing this magazine on your forum. I'm no lawyer, but I'm thinking that is (or was) within the doctrine of Fair Use. CMAC himself seemed to think so, in 2017, no?
Upon examination of my two examples above, it appears you've been inconsistent yourselves. CMAC supported my so-called copyright infringements!
I'm not in your shoes, so I don't understand the pressures you are under.
But you've made some sweeping changes that have wrecked a metric ton of productive discussion-based content on your forum.
...........................
In closing, here is an example of what Steve Moyles a.k.a. Scuffy B had to say about my contributions, a day prior to my 50th birthday in 2010:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1244072&msg=1244072#msg1244072
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 16, 2010 - 08:24pm PT
I'm jumping the gun here, but only by a few hours. It's Decade Time for Roy, one of our favorites.
He's nothing but positive in his dealings with the rest of us.
The Tarbousier really raised the level of the Forum a few years back, when
he launched the Mussy Nebula series of threads.
He photo-bombed us like nobody ever had, and his warm style made outsiders
and hangers-on feel like they were in the scene right along with the real
participants.
What he did with that series was to draw other creative types out of the
woodwork with their own archival goodies, and many of our most precious
and revered posters can be traced back to Roy, literally. He opened doors
that could never be shut again. ^^^
Those doors have been shut by you guys, under the advisement of your lawyers, and based on what you say is a new ruling as of 2018.
This to me appears to be an overreaction, but again, I'm not in your shoes.
I see that your reference to case law changing in 2018 at least explains your sweeping changes, thanks for specifying the underpinning of your actions.
...............................
Good luck with it going forward,
Roy
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:17am PT
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How is having to click the new image link circumventing any copyright violation?
You are still displaying the image from a possibly copyrighted source, still using bandwidth of the source server, not giving credit, etc.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:24am PT
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You are still displaying the image from a possibly copyrighted source.
That's not true.
clicking [Click to View Linked Image] takes you away from this site to the so-called owner site to view the image.
The only problem I saw in this whole episode in the last couple of days is the bull rampaging thru the china shop attitude.
Some of the people you affected are just that actual people not digital entities with no soul.
It's easy to push keyboard buttons to make changes but live people reacte differently than computer speak and website configurations changes.
Here's what Vitaliy M. said on his "Lone Pine Peak - OS Free Solo of the Winter Chimney (3,000 WI3 M4)" trip report.
Sorry for the photos not showing up! That is an unpleasant surprise, they used to show up fine.
Uploading photos would take forever and my files are too large to load.
I tried to load one to have a cover shot, but the files are too big.
Don't have the time to deal with uploading every photo qand sizing my files specifically for ST.
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:26am PT
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To me the conversation seems to be a necessary one. If there were no rules at all about posting copyrighted info, then supertopo might actually have some liability. Although I feel sorry for people who put so much work in and then had it deleted.
Would Supertopo enable linked/embedded photos for one week in order that folks who have been longterm users of this site, could have a chance to [finish] back[ing] up the contributions that they have created and/or appreciated? Here
Or send the authors a copy of the deleted materials by email. It seems like only a half a dozen people were seriously affected. If this isn't easy then check on the wayback machine to see if they are organized in a way that they can be downloaded at once. The links and directory structure are all preserved. It's according to the directory structure. You would have to get in there and look at it.
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monolith
climber
state of being
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:35am PT
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WB, It's still displaying the image without the sources consent even if it's displayed in a new window, using their bandwidth, and not giving credit.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:39am PT
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I'll wait till RJ Spurrier to see what he says.
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formerclimber
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:42am PT
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Forums and social networks are normally protected from liability by DMCA safe harbor, specifically the one for "information residing on systems or networks at the direction of users". Otherwise, Facebook, Twitter, youtube, most forums and photo hosting sites would cease to exist.
That "game changer" 2018 decision (Goldman vs. Breitbart) is a very bad one/a suit brought on by, in my view, a system-milker - hopefully, eventually will be overturned by the Supreme Court and might have negative impact on Mr Goldman's business or career- but it doesn't seem to have to do with sites protected by safe harbor such as forums.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/03/copyright-and-online-journalism-whats-going-new-york
Mr. Goldman, the photographer, posted it to Snapchat and it was quickly reposted on Reddit and Twitter. Eventually, various news publishers and media websites wrote about the developing sports story and embedded the tweets containing the photo into their articles.
...
Alternatively, he might have sued Twitter for copyright infringement for displaying the photo, though Twitter would likely have defeated that lawsuit by invoking the DMCA safe harbors. But the photographer chose a third, potentially more lucrative approach: sue the news organizations that reported on the story.
Notice, Goldman never sued Twitter or Reddit/protected by safe harbor - he only was able to sue news sites.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:45am PT
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expert advice from our lawyers. I call BS. Your vernacular and summary of this is so bizarre and otherworldly, I can’t accept it as fact. It sounds more to me like The Verge is ST general counsel, you got called out and now you’re lying about it.
Regardless, and as a separable matter, the world is full of similar risks. This is what insurance is for and why guys with a sack are needed to manage certain matters with success. IMO, you're ignorant, weak, willing to do and say anything to CYA and should be replaced.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Apr 18, 2019 - 07:46am PT
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Roy, Scuffy B (miss that guy) really nailed it, those Mussy Nebula threads really were a game changer here, well done my friend. I had to go back and look at them the other day when all this foofraw started, and indeed they're so much less engaging with all the photos replaced by links. The thrill is gone.
Thanks for all your work over the years, you've always been an awesome contributor.
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John M
climber
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Apr 18, 2019 - 08:20am PT
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Roy, Scuffy B (miss that guy) really nailed it, those Mussy Nebula threads really were a game changer here, well done my friend. I had to go back and look at them the other day when all this foofraw started, and indeed they're so much less engaging with all the photos replaced by links. The thrill is gone.
Thanks for all your work over the years, you've always been an awesome contributor.
+1 to what Off White said. I really appreciate all your effort over the years Roy.
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 18, 2019 - 02:59pm PT
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Werner and formerclimber have it right.
Thanks formerclimber for your comments and linking to that EFF article, which does a nice job of breaking down the disturbing implications of that 2018 ruling. It is that case which forces our hand on this unfortunate change in how we are handling [img] tags.
A key quote in that EFF article is this one:
Even worse, the logic of the ruling applies to all in-line linking, not just embedding tweets.
Werner is correct that by simply linking to the hosting site, rather than displaying the image on SuperTopo, we avoid inheriting the copyright infringement liability implied by that 2018 rulling.
Tarbuster:
You are correct that this change in how we handle [img] tags is both a significant change and quite unfortunate. We don't like it either. If the case law related to how those [img] links didn't change, we would not have changed our approach. But, we need to deal with the law as it is, even if we don't like it and hope it might change in the future -- the reality at this time is that SuperTopo can't take on the copyright liability risk related to displaying those hotlinked images. Sorry.
JLP:
The solution you linked to on Mountain Project looks like an intriguing hack to workaround our [img] tag handling. Thanks for pointing it out. We obviously can't do that kind of hack for you, but you all are free to do what you want with hacking your own Chrome browser if you'd like.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:15pm PT
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For the record if I disappear it was not voluntary I got nuked. RJ it certainly appears that you flat out lied about Tad asking to have his posts removed and leaveing of his own free will. This is from an email conversation that I just had with Tad Hocking.
Hi Nick, you don’t have to call him out or make a big scene of it.
If you want, your call, you can post this for me;
“I didn’t request my posts be removed , I was deactivated and my posts purged before I had a chance to reply to his last post directed at me which he has since deleted.”
If you lied about Tad how do we know that you did not lie about DMT? how can we trust anything you say? How does this not affect your credibility for whatever climbs that you have claimed to have done in whatever style they were reported as????
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Apr 18, 2019 - 04:51pm PT
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JLP - the improved version doesn't work at all for me. All the links are back. The original version got most but not all of the links put in as in-line photos.
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