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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 15, 2019 - 08:50pm PT
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I have to say that I understand why folks might be afraid to host vitriolic discussion but such discussion is important to democracy and even to proper anarchosyndical climbing community progress and discourse. I don't come here for beta and I din't come here to hear from crusty old dads about beta. I come here to talk about and listen to others (some older, some wiser, some with whom I agree and others with whom I disagree) pontificate on life, which is inherently political, and for me inherently about climbing and wild lands. Jim Beyer did not name that thing DoAD or Intifada just on a whim....does my new route/summit name "STFU, Donnie" and its beta/TR now not get the same latitude on ST as Beyer's way bigger badder stuff? If so, I guess I'd better just go play with myself elsewhere. I bid you good day sirs and madams.
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Jim Clipper
climber
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:03pm PT
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So history shows that fattrad was years ahead of his time. The arc of justice is long.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 15, 2019 - 09:55pm PT
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Gawd Madbolter would you make up your mind and either post what I agree with or post what I can’t even stomach?
So sorry. I'll try to do better.
;-)
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capseeboy
Social climber
portland, oregon
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Apr 15, 2019 - 10:23pm PT
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Land access issues...banned.
What a bucket of worms spawned by NetGen.
Good night folks and good luck.
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Port
Trad climber
Stockholm, Sweden 🇸🇪
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Apr 16, 2019 - 02:11am PT
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Finally. You should all be thanking Chris for saving you hours and days of your life arguing like children.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 16, 2019 - 04:39am PT
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It's Chris's site, and I understand and will support his position.
That said, and admitting that I haven't read or posted much on the political threads for a couple of years now, I need to say this in support of those threads:
I was never the boulderer John Gill was, or the climber John Stannard was, but I was thrilled to interact with them, and a great many other outstanding climbers, as equals on the "off topic" threads on this site. I met a great many wonderful people -- climbers all -- on the political threads here.
Thank you, Chris, for hosting them as long as you have. This site remains an excellent resource for me, political or otherwise.
John
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Apr 16, 2019 - 08:52am PT
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ST is a community of aging climbers, many of whom (as I read it here) no longer climb much at all, if indeed at all anymore. Although the site is Chris's, without this cantankerous and rough crowd of climbers and ex-climbers (who have much to say about many things), there could be no ST at all. Changing demographics and experiences have led people to other topic areas other than climbing where they can continue to be cantankerous and rough.
I for one like this crowd, and I appreciate the opportunities to listen and maybe even talk to them.
A ban on political threads might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I suggest that the offense is not politics, per se, but people who go over the line and are particularly uncivil to others with their comments. That problem would call for some policing and messaging to those who cross the line offensively.
Who's to say what crosses the line? Administrative management.
Administratively, it's a bit lazy (but less costly) to make a black-and-white policy and expect that the policy will solve a problem organizationally. Good organizations require close management.
It could be possible to enlist community help to police the site of outrageous behaviors.
I could appreciate how the site might not be making the kind of money for the hassle of management, though.
Be well.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 08:54am PT
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is 'collusion' a political word?????
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Apr 16, 2019 - 08:58am PT
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Putting a muzzle on people for discussing topics that some might find unsavory even under the jurisdiction of a private business is is a business plan fraught with peril. I’ve been bouncing around this site in a sort of self imposed limbo for several years now anyway, so maybe it’s time I go the way of the Dodo. One last question; what’s a climbing gym?
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:13am PT
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I wonder of threads like the old boobs one or similar would be welcome at the MSTGA site.
I do agree, though, that the political threads brought out extremely bad textual behavior in some people.
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A Essex
climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:27am PT
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(boobs)
use ur imagination you lazy screen junkies!!!!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 16, 2019 - 09:50am PT
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Hey, John!
Nice to see you here. I've missed your voice in these discussions.
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Spanky
Social climber
boulder co
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:25am PT
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Kudos to you Chris, I used to spend quite a bit of time on ST but have drifted away over the last couple of years to MP because I come to theses sites for climbing content not political and religious arguments. thanks
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Apr 16, 2019 - 10:55am PT
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So if the ST sale rumors are legit, it appears that CMac doesn't really give a sh!t about the community he's created here but cares only about the value of his commodity.
I think he has that right. I'm not paying to use this site (though I've paid to buy many of ST's excellent guides), and I don't see where I have a right to devalue what Chris owns.
Apogee, it was great being able to participate with you in the discussions (yes, there were many) here.
John
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Apr 16, 2019 - 01:14pm PT
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We used to go into NP or NF wilderness without permits.
We could cram 5 vehicles and ten people into a free campsite in Josh.
We could make campfires from local wood and bury crap in a hole.
Drive without seatbelts, bike and ski without helmets.
The lowest common denominator always determines the rules or laws. Oh well, things always change.
I'll still peak in and hope to find a little personality left, to go with great trip reports and photography.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 16, 2019 - 02:47pm PT
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happy what's mstga?
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RJ Spurrier
SuperTopo staff member
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Apr 16, 2019 - 06:08pm PT
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T Hocking said:
So if the ST sale rumors are legit, it appears that CMac doesn't really give a sh!t about the community he's created here but cares only about the value of his commodity.
Mr. Hocking, you are grossly misinformed, and also rather rude in your speculation about Chris's motivations.
I don't know what you are smoking to inspire your delusion of "ST sale rumors", but let me put the facts straight right now: the ST site is neither for sale, seeking sale, nor has the site been presented an unsolicited offer (and none is expected, ever). There is no basis for the "ST sale rumor" you falsely allege, which appears to only be a rumor because of your ignorant and speculative post which is completely and utterly without basis.
Further, the speculation that ST is making a lot of money on the forum, such as suggested in posts by Reilly, is definitively false and a further delusion. The ad revenue for the site does not cover the cost of keeping the site hosted and in operation. It never has. The Forum is provided as a service to the climbing community, at an economic cost for Chris and SuperTopo LLC. If Chris was focused on profits, the Forum would have been shut down long ago.
The SuperTopo site has never encouraged copyright infringement.
What Chris posted in that regard was neither a new policy for the site nor an unreasonable one for Chris to remind members about. It is perfectly reasonable to ask people to only upload images they own the rights to. The liability created by copyright violations is substantial.
The SuperTopo Forum has never encouraged political debate, despite the obvious interest of members to engage in those kinds of topics. While it is clear that many people like to discuss politics with a community of fellow climbers, it is also clear that political discussions have brought out the beast -- the worst in climber-to-climber behavior -- and result in substantial degradation of the Forum overall, and a significant burden of moderation costs. It is not what the site was ever about, and it is perfectly reasonable for Chris to ask folks to take those discussions elsewhere.
While you, T Hocking, may not care about the ethics or the liability created by violations of Federal Copyright law, or whether political discussions result in degradation of the core community mission of the Forum (due to substantial inappropriate comments, posts, and feuding between tribes of climbers), I'd ask you to consider whether it is reasonable for Chris to set the guidelines for this Forum, that exists solely because he has been willing to fund its hosting despite the lack of its commercial prudence.
rj
SuperTopo Webmaster
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Apr 16, 2019 - 06:12pm PT
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^^^ That seems definitive.
I, for one, appreciate the post.
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