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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 24, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
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MikeL: The postmodernist tends to seek and find enchantment in life
Wiki: While encompassing a broad range of ideas, postmodernism is typically defined by an attitude of skepticism, irony or rejection toward grand narratives, ideologies and various tenets of universalism, including objective notions of reason, human nature, social progress, moral universalism, absolute truth, and objective reality.
So you reject most everything and what is left is "enchantment."
OK
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 24, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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en·chant·ment
inˈCHantmənt,enˈCHantmənt/Submit
noun
1.
a feeling of great pleasure; delight.
"the enchantment of the mountains"
synonyms: magic, witchcraft, sorcery, wizardry, necromancy; More
2.
the state of being under a spell; magic.
"a world of mystery and enchantment"
meditation stupor = the state of being under a spell
We are getting some independent closing that confirms the nature of MikeL's stream of consciousness.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 24, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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Largo,
do you understand the verb tense of the statement, 'been there; done that'? Both forms are in the past tense. And yet you seem to think that when I make that statement, which could have had the additional form, "& doing this now", you know what I am doing now.
Is it that you cannot construct the correct mental image for sentences in time & space on the fly regarding the limits of the statements I make and so you add your slanted interpretation for your personal exploitation?
You have no clue what I am doing now. Why make it up?
You say,
Serious practitioneers don't binge on something and declare the work over.
First of all I have given you a few clues -- I can get to some mental states of meditation while awake. Are these short visits meditating? Is this work? Is it being on a binge? Am I a serious practitioner that doesn't sit? I have no desire to be in a state of enchantment and such likes -- I do not go to such mental zones. No effort needed to stay away from these ways of experience.
I once stopped in to visit the Berkeley Zendo on 1670 Dwight way. The short lecture was," we all think we know the ways things are -- try to find out how things are" -- then zazen. You seem to have not put much time into finding out how things are with me before you ...post.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 24, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
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A long-ago Ga Tech friend who became a physicist: If you can't explain it well, you don't understand it.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 24, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
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HFCS,
Take a breath.
Largo: However it is almost certainly mistaken to believe Mike's words about not knowing were derived from Heidegger, Derrida (a peerless double talker in my opinion), Foucault, Lyotard, Rorty, Baudrillard...
Well, that’s certainly true enough.
With regards to everyone I’ve ever read or heard, I’ve thought to myself: “yeah, well, he or she makes a good point. But that other stuff, I don’t know about.”
Sure, I am someone who feels a resonance with postmodern conversations. (How can one not if one senses emptiness?) Heidegger I grok (dasein). Foucault’s arguments on the emergence of prison systems, insanity as a legal concept, and power are impressive. Lyotard’s railings against the European enlightenment (rationality) and meta-narratives I agree with. Rorty’s argument that truth is dependent upon culture works for me. Baudrillard’s take on simulacra and hyperreality seem almost undeniable in postmodern cultures, and Derrida has made “deconstruction” a everyday notion referred to by everyone. (I have yet to meet anyone who seems to fully understands what Derrida said. That includes me. Derrida was imponderable, a joker in the deck.)
jogill: So you reject most everything and what is left is "enchantment."
Not “reject.” But, the rest—yeah, pretty much. You might think that doing and getting what you want is real freedom. I’d say you’re still encumbered by those desires and aversions. Drop those and see whether your sense of freedom changes.
Dingus: We are getting some independent closing that confirms the nature of MikeL's stream of consciousness.
Your writing is cryptic to me. I need more detailed exposition I guess.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2017 - 05:37am PT
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Men these days search for a way through
the clouds,
But the cloud way is dark and without sign.
The mountains are high and often steep and rocky
In the broadest valleys the sun seldom shines.
Green crests before you and behind,
White clouds to east and west. Do
you want to know where the cloud way lies?
There it is, in the midst of the Void!
From Cold Mountain Poems, translation, Burton
Per Derrida, the main problem is delivery, the breaking wave of mismatched notions and concepts, sugared with faux poetic argot, imbued with phenomenological maxims themselves either misinterpreted or reinterpreted in wonky ways ... withall a writing style so free wheeling and ADD that it reminds me of a mythical lion described by Woody Lion as "having the head of a lion and the body of a lion, though not of the same lion." His writing was extravagantly overwrought and riddled with clutter and needless gadgets and curlicues. A skilled editor could have winnowed his drift down to bullet points, but we would have lost the prolix babble that made him a kind of braying auctioneer (in terms of his running babble) of French philosophy, and fun to read and sound out for sheer amusement. Imagine the guy describing a lap up Sacherer Cracker. The TR would run 55 pages and would range from Rousseau to atom smashers as he sipped a latte and combed his gray mop for the 50th time that hour.
At the core of his ramblings was a simple truth and insight about the emptiness of our interpretations, and the fiction that there was some object or thing, some objective stuff we could get a rope around that was NOT an interpretation. Plato said the same thing in simple terms: We can only "know" a representation. Kant said much the same thing but in the most turgid, brain sapping way that Goerte had to quite Critique of Pure Reason after ten pages, fearing insanity.
Ultimately, Derrida was a showboat and a hand-tooled dandy who smacked of the Coyote found in American Indian tales, without its powers of creation. When read like a brilliant intellectual buffoon, the Frenchie is amusing, even hilarious, though for reasons he probably wouldn't find funny himself.
Here's a fun thread on the man:
https://adrianblau.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/is-derrida-full-of-bullsh#t-part-1/
Ho ho ho!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 25, 2017 - 09:58am PT
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It's fun to have a good writer throwing softball. Thanks, JL.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 25, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
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I visit Werner not infrequently in the Valley when I'm there,
Largo is around enough that I see him almost every year somewhere,
MH2 I've climbed with when visiting Vancouver,
Dingus McGee has taken us to places he's developed in the greater Wyoming ranges,
moosedrool has tied in with me on a rope too, and I've climbed at his gym
I don't think I've met PSP also PP but it could happen
emailed exchange with Jim Brennan
someday when I venture up to Oregon I'd be sure to drop healyje a line to get together,
I haven't met MikeL, or jogill but that could happen, I'm sure, there are many more.
But I highly suspect that I would never know just who you are HFCS, never know to contact you about climbing, nor really feel like I'd be that interested in meeting with you over a beer. It sounds like it would be an exercise in listening to a monologue rant. That's how you come across.
No doubt if I had some formal neuroscience in school (had I had the time to pursue it at all seriously) I'd be better off, but I'm not sure that I would be "in your camp," and being a physicist I'd probably guess I have all the "control engineering" I need to understand your point(s), I've build many complex control systems myself in my research career.
Basically it comes down to the issue of how you interact, starting with your anonymity. Behind that you do not need any courage to have any conviction, that is the point of the anonymity, isn't it, you can't reveal your identity because you are afraid that those who do know you wouldn't approve.
That anonymity allows you to behave in a most uncivil manner, and doing that, you invite others to treat you the same way.
So while I might agree in principle with many of the things you say here, you use rhetoric that I wouldn't use myself, and that I feel hurts rather than helps your cause.
That and the indications of what you post that you don't really read serious science, preferring more popular expositions of some rather complicated stuff that is undoubtedly hard to grapple with. Generally I find myself looking for that complicated stuff if something comes up in conversation here.
As a practicing scientist, I commit to a particular notion of how to understand the universe. I fully understand that others wouldn't commit to those notions, and might commit to others. While I feel that my particular point-of-view is unique and powerful, my practice has also taught me to be skeptical of everything, including the limits of science (which is rather unique I believe). I completely understand that expressing that skepticism can be maddening to some (you especially) but part of my commitment is to recognize that there very well may be limits to what science can know. I don't think that we're close to it now, but it's possible.
It is worth discussing this with people who have been equally committed to their notions. That's just being intellectual. Discussions with true believers aren't usually much discussions, and all the more so when they deluge you with so many references that you can't quite see what intellectual process they themselves had gone through to reach their commitment.
In the end, it is the discussion with people that matters, and you must recognize that some anonymous participant on the internet is far from being a person, that they insist on that anonymity certainly indicates a willingness to abandon their humanity, if only in part. Their complaining about how people treat them carries no real weight, it is what they seek in their action.
Go hug a real person, on this forum, at least for me, I don't see you as real, I see you as some persona you have adopted for the purpose of advocating your beliefs, beliefs that you do not hold seriously enough that you would want everyone (or anyone) to know.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 25, 2017 - 01:18pm PT
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Nice commentary, John. Thanks
I agree with you, Ed. Anonymous postings, apart from links, weaken the message. All claims about expertise are suspect. But HFCS has chosen his path.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2017 - 02:12pm PT
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Ed raises an important point here - that in the end it's just us folks here trying best as we can to figure out what the hell is this life of ours. I've been rather dismissive of people at times and that's on me though I've tried to be good natured and in person would welcome any conversation with anyone about anything.
The case of Fruity is unique owing to tunnel vision coupled to a fractious style that undercuts the insights he must have if he's read half the material he slings around like arrows. But the most stuff I've learned on this thread is from people I disagree with, whereas Fruity lashes anyone who finds his angles a little obtuse and inflexible, as though anyone of us knows anything for sure.
And the case of going off on Mike as a pimp of a "phony Zen Narrative" is inane IMO. Viet Nam vet, climber, goes on to get a PhD and spends a life in academia and decades chasing the subjective adventures -- well call him what you want, but a "phony" is more of a projection than a descriptor. The guy is a great resource and yet I've yet to see anyone ask him an honest question about material they do not know or understand. As though any of us know everything.
But I trust we will find a way to move forward.
But who is Fruity, anyhow? Maybe post a pic of yourself so we know you're real.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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Dingus, my evaluation of your understanding per the subjective adventures is based on your go to line .... "I have no desire to be in a state of enchantment and such likes," implying Mike, PPsP and I are dupes enchanted by the phoney Zen narrative. It follows from this that our enchantment derives from Zen itself, a subject that always says it is experiential, and yours consisted of stopping by a Beserkley Zen center on your way to go bouldering.
Now if I said physics is baloney based on the tourist lap I took through CERNE, few would take me seriously. And if I tried understanding others based on my own lack of understanding or stuff cribbed out of internet pages, I wouldn't get far with sober thinkers.
If you ever asked a serious question (per the subjective angle), one not poisoned by your own biases, someone here might take a crack at it. As is you feel like the guy up top kicking rocks down on the people trying to lead the pitch.
And if you are conducting your own private dive into the void, post up on what you are finding. We do.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 25, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
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Ed, I read your post top to bottom, where it's not off the mark, it's just more than a wee bit biased.
Imo.
At any rate,
Merry Solstice!
...
HFCS has chosen his path.
Yes.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 25, 2017 - 03:12pm PT
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But who is Fruity, anyhow?
I see HFCS as a fictional creation of Largo's.
Until better evidence comes along.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
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Yes, Fruity is my shadow side. I channel him some time when I've downed too much egg nog.
But I am curious who he is.
And I hope to meet Mike some day. And all of you.
Again, Merry Christmas.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 25, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
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Tú también.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2017 - 03:43pm PT
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Maybe start a mini thread within a thread: Forget mind for a minute. Who is Fruity?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 25, 2017 - 05:51pm PT
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^^^ I thought I was your doctor...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 25, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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If I am biased it is a bias towards those people that I know.
Werner might annoy me sometime, but I can always go and visit him and Merry, greeted with big smiles and hugs and relaxing into hours of conversation. And that makes those times that he's annoyed me a lesson to go and read something that he has referred to and give it some thought. Werner's a friend, and perhaps he can teach me something.
I was once annoyed with off-width climbing, and we went and figured it out, not that I'm any good at it for all that work, really, but at least I know how to do it. I usually try to figure out what annoys me.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Dec 26, 2017 - 05:19am PT
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Largo,
circa 1966 I came across a book by Allan Watts and took up Zen breathing type meditation. Along the way, I romanced other Eastern ideas on forms of mind training. I know several angles.
As for being enchanted, I have a puppy that to be seems enchanted with the making of his new world. I let it happen; he will get over it.
What is my mind like? I have long forgotten almost whatever Sanscrit mind terms etc I ever knew. In Western words, my mental state in its workings is quite pre-verbal and tends to minimize an increase in entropy -- sort of not very busy. For an example: Let's us say we were walking down the street and pass an "object", you then ask, Did you think that person was a street person? My mind does very little differentiation in its waking state and before the question was asked 'street person' never entered the context of my awareness in seeing the object as such. But I can jump into the street person context and have a meaningful discussion -- anytime. Narratives take me out of the pre-verbal state but they are one of the ways we can discuss ideas.
Where the state of Zen mind goes I do not exactly know but I suspect some form of minimum mental entropy change? There does seem to be several angles to approach the likeness of minimum mental entropy change. Being in a state of enchantment is hardly a state of minimum mental entropy change. To forever hangout there is a hang-up to getting to minimal entropy increase -- It would be like living the puppy life adventure forever.
Your simile, of me rolling rocks on people when being a pitch above, illustrates the nature of how you interpret a hint of help. I have no intentions to hurt anyone and if you so entirely believe in your phony narrative then outside hints for aiding your realm are probably worthless. Fine, you are on your own or with the phony Zen narrative. And again, I have never said Zen was phony but there exists a phony Zen narrative. After all, when you are pre-verbal very few narratives exist.
And as for being enlightened: In one of my "tenues" in a school of Eastern thought different than Zen they offered an evaluation of where you were at along the path for some $$. My wallet stayed welded to my pocket. I do have some confidence in doing things myself. And if the narrative, ungraspable, is your take, fine, I can see through it.
But little of this is brain science.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 26, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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There seems to be a lot of Christmas (“holidays” if you prefer) cheer going around here in this thread lately.
Ed, IMO your post to HFCS is probably the most civil thing I’ve read on this thread. I felt humbled after reading it. I feel compelled to respond in kind, but your expression makes me dumb.
Dingus: I do have some confidence in doing things myself.
What more could one ask for?
In Dzogchen, certain teachers have said that there are really only three steps to take (“Tsik Sum Ne Dek”) to liberation.
1. Be introduced to, or get, “the view.” Even if for the briefest moment. (See reality unencumbered.)
2. Decide that there is nothing but that.
3. Confidently continue this way until everything is liberated.
(The very instruction--brief as it is--gives rise to “the view.” See http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/patrul-rinpoche/tsik-sum-nedek-root); The instruction is also known as “Hitting the essence in three words.” Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said this about the teaching:
“Imagine you heard all eighty-four thousand teachings of Buddha and then contemplated on them. You would find that ultimately there was nothing that needed to be introduced beyond ‘Hitting the Essence in Three Words’. Compare these ‘three words’ to the teachings of a hundred panditas or a thousand siddhas, and there is nothing they can teach you beyond this. The omniscient Longchen Rabjam had realized completely the meaning of the three categoriesand nine spaces of Dzogpachenpo, and became inseparable from the Primordial Buddha Samantabhadra. Yet suppose you actually met him face to face: there would be nothing he could teach you beyond ‘Hitting the Essence in Three Words’. Rigdzin Jikmé Lingpa, Jikmé Gyalwé Nyugu and all the vidyadharas and masters of the three lineages—they could not possibly teach us anything beyond this one instruction.”
When I was first introduced to this approach, I complained that “deciding” could not have anything to do with liberation. “Deciding” seemed misled in so many ways. (How can one “decide?” Pffftttt!) It took me a few years to understand. I can’t explain it.
All we ever have are our own lights and honest inquires. Ed, MH2, Largo, you, DMT, . . . .
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