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WBraun
climber
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Mark Force -- "Yeah, I make money being a doc and teaching."
What are you supposed to do?
Work for nothing and drool so that you can satisfy some fools illusionary ignorant dream of what pure is.
Now that would be pure st000pid .......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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What are you supposed to do?
Work for nothing and drool so that you can satisfy some fools illusionary ignorant dream of what pure is.
Now that would be pure st000pid .......
Hi Werner! You nailed it!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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These clueless atheists here never do any tests.
They just argue with each other and copy paste links to so-called also clueless experts, so st0000pid .....
One of the things that the devout are sometimes accused of is being stupid. Of course, that's a generalization, and really a blind epithet.
But here is something objective.
The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life did a test of religious knowledge.
What they found was that protestants, on average, scored 54%
Atheists, though, scored 64%---in fact, only Jews outscored atheists, by 1%.
I scored 87%, but of course I have a lot of education, although not any formal religious education.
I find it ironic that the God-less know more about religion than the devout!
Try the test yourself:
http://www.pewforum.org/quiz/u-s-religious-knowledge/
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c wilmot
climber
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Ken- the devout don't bother with studying other religions- they have the answer...
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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93%
The Jewish sabbath starts on Friday not Saturday, damn.
Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God by Jonathan Edwards is fun to read aloud.
The God that holds you over the Pit of Hell, much as one holds a Spider, or some loathsome In- sect, over the Fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his Wrath towards you burns like Fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the Fire; he is of purer Eyes than to bear to have you in his Sight; you are ten thousand Times so abominable in his Eyes as the most hate- ful venomous Serpent is in ours. You have offended him mightily more than ever a stubborn Rebel did his Prince: and yet ‘tis nothing but his Hand that holds you from falling into the Fire every Moment: 'Tis to be ascribed to nothing else, that you did not go to Hell the last Night; that you were suffered to awake again in this World, after you closed your Eyes to sleep: and there is no other Reason to be given why you have not dropped into Hell since you arose in the Morning, but that God’s Hand has held you up: There is no other reason to be given why you han’t gone to Hell since you have sat here in the House of God, provoking his pure Eyes by your sinful wicked Manner of attending his sol-
emn Worship: Yea, there is nothing else that is to be given as a Reason why you don’t this very Mo- ment drop down into Hell.
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WBraun
climber
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Ken M just proved how clueless he really is as usual.
All you've done is talk about sectarian religion.
Real religion has nothing to do with this ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Paul maintains, rightly imo, that religion is core to language, culture, art, and lots of other things.
You can "maintain" anything, and defend by being righteously indignant when challenged, but that doesn't establish it as "fact." We can ascribe all sorts of reasons for our "innate" abilities, evolution, divine intervention, etc, some more pernicious than others, but of course whoever claims to be an arbiter of whose innate abilities are superior to another's generally resorts to ineffable criteria.
At least science is willing to be wrong, and part of that is making a more precise statement.
DMT's quote above is certainly not precise, and a large amount of work in understanding language, culture, art, "and lots of other things" do not put religion as their core.
But maybe I misunderstood the post.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dingus: 'In my thoughts' and 'in my prayers' can be parsed to mean the same thing, or not, depending on context.
Perhaps many people are aware of Habitat For Humanities’ modus operandi. It is not to make the world a better place by building house for the needy. It’s providing a vehicle so that its participants who volunteer to build homes open their hearts.
Putting something or someone in one’s thoughts, and how, changes people’s intentions and minds. Then things sometimes appear to shift.
This may offend some, but praying is little different than having a thought with some belief or faith behind it. There’s really hardly any difference at all.
Ed: DMT's quote above is certainly not precise, and a large amount of work in understanding language, culture, art, "and lots of other things" do not put religion as their core.
A very remarkable statement. Please inform me. Everything I’ve come to understand about those subjects would flatly contradict that assessment. To what extent would you think there would be any history as anyone knows it if religion were excluded from it?
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Sycorax,
I taught those texts as well from 1996 to 2008 before becoming an RN.
I liked reading SitHoaAG aloud to my students; it freaked them out a bit.
. )
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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To what extent would you think there would be any history as anyone knows it if religion were excluded from it?
Not saying that religion should be excluded, but how you decide it is the "core" should be examined, particularly given the multiplicity of religions and religious philosophies. What comes first? the belief that religious spirituality explains innate ability or that recognition of these abilities seems to demand an explanation?
A much more nuanced question than dumbly stating that "religion is the core," even if that seems to be popular opinion.
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Regarding DMT’s post.
Western languages, culture, literature and other arts are rife with references, allusions and other influences from classical philosophy, mythology and Christianity.
When I taught English lit I would pull out a bible at times to help my students understand an allusion.
As to prayers, wishes or thoughts, I think for most of us (even us atheists) there is a desire that we could somehow influence events out of our control.
How I think this all relates to Dennett’s position and DMT’s query is that we can’t just erase the effects, or pretend they don’t exist, of something that is so woven through our culture and the imaginations and consciousness of so many people. It is part of us, even atheists.
Some of us would like to see the end of the god delusion— the feeling or belief something is actually there that cares and has control. But as with classical mythology, our culture, arts and language would be greatly impoverished if we tried to erase all religious influences. And perhaps some might believe that we as a people would be less if we could somehow eliminate magical thinking; I’m ambivalent—I love fiction and non-fiction, but I want to know the difference, but then I think it entirely human and not hypocritical of me that I sympathize and do not berate the family members of my patients when they pray.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2515755&msg=3038106#msg3038106
v v v v
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed,
I guess what I was trying to say is that religion is so imbued in, so much a part of, almost every area of human life that it’s exceedingly difficult for me to imagine what our development or history would be descriptively without it. How could anyone recount “what happened” and “who we are” without it? This has nothing to do with prescription, but more description. (Can we eschew normative concerns for the moment here?)
I mean, sure, one could talk and describe the evolution of the human species without any reference at all to religion, but there is so much that would simply engender a “?” to readers or listeners. Literature without any reference to any religion is what? Not even Huxley or Orwell would qualify. Linguistics without reference to the metaphors of meaning established by religion would be what? Words? Pshaw. Words are letters lined up in sequence. What do words mean? Only their denotation? (We argue constantly about connotation here.) Philosophy or the law? No. Even the beloved Newton thought that God had some part in what he witnessed.
I just don’t think that anyone can parse out or bracket “existence” as we think of it today or yesterday without somehow including a reference or two to various religious values, beliefs, and norms of behavior. What culture on the face of this planet can one point to that has no background or basis in religion? I submit there is not one.
Unfortunately there is not Nation of Scientists yet. Perhaps there should be.
Be well.
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WBraun
climber
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Some of us would like to see the end of the god delusion— the feeling or believe something is actually there that cares and has control.
Impossible to do, its never ever been done nor will it ever be done ever.
There IS God, the absolute truth, and the atheists can't do jack sh!t about it ever.
Try and end it and all you'll end up doing ultimately is committing suicide but God remains and you'll turn into a st00pid ghost ......
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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What culture on the face of this planet can one point to that has no background or basis in religion? I submit there is not one
Thought provoking.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Sans Bushman:
The peak of the ritual is a moment of intense energy and communal rhythm, where the shamanic dancers enter a trance that grants them admission to the “half-death” realm of spirits.
“They attain ecstasy simply by means of their dancing,” states the Rock Art Institute (RARI), which has grown to understand the ritual through the artistic rock art paintings of the San people.
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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What culture on the face of this planet can one point to that has no background or basis in religion? I submit there is not one
good question, curious so did a little searching
Wikipedia on the History of Atheism:
Will Durant explains that certain pygmy tribes found in Africa were observed to have no identifiable cults or rites. There were no totems, no deities, and no spirits. Their dead were buried without special ceremonies or accompanying items and received no further attention. They even appeared to lack simple superstitions, according to travelers' reports
interesting
The Jaina position on God and religion from a perspective of a non-Jain can be summed up in the words of Anne Vallely.
“ Jainism is the most difficult religion. We get no help from any gods, or from anyone. We just have to cleanse our souls. In fact other religions are easy, but they are not very ambitious. In all other religions when you are in difficulty, you can pray to God for help and maybe, God comes down to help. But Jainism is not a religion of coming down. In Jainism it is we who must go up. We only have to help ourselves. In Jainism we have to become God. That is the only thing.[24] ”
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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Sycorax,
I left teaching before Common Core, but that sounds like something I would have done with my juniors.
Of course for the AP English Language classes we had to dive even deeper—identifying tone and style, what elements create the tone, etc., how that serves the writer’s purpose, and then explain it all in class in a well-crafted essay.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Hallet first shows that the Pygmies are certainly one of the oldest races on Earth. He then demonstrates that their legends and myths are likely the basis of much Egyptian myth, which in turn influenced biblical stories. Hence, there is no need to suppose that the Pygmies were influenced by Bible stories. In reality, there is absolutely no evidence of any such influence, including and especially in the Pygmy language, which would have reflected biblical intrusions such as the names of “Jesus” and “Moses,” etc. In this regard, Hallet with his colleague Alex Pelle also created an 8,000-word Efé lexicon that reveals some stunning comparisons to various Indo-European languages, including and especially Germanic ones such as Old Norse/Norwegian. Again, it appears that this old and isolated people may be the originators of much language as well.
“In the Pygmy religion, we discover an apparently very ancient account of the ‘Garden of Eden,’ as well as a Father God and a mortal savior who overcomes evil.”
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Lennox
climber
in the land of the blind
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As an atheist, lover of literature and sausage, I will. Thanks
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 10, 2017 - 06:35am PT
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It's nice (IMO) to have some humanities scholars here on this thread.
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