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L
climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
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Sep 19, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
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I think if you look at her training and efforts and philosophy and approach, it's like ecofeminism 3.0.
She's definitely motivating. (The BW 3.0 website still looks like it's under construction though.)
"Bretton Woods 3.0"...who knew? The great thing is that these sort of talks and ideas are springing up all over the world.
The word "Ecofeminism" is interesting. Not sure how to get my head around it.
What's your take?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 09:46pm PT
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My take is that it is fairly removed from third wave feminism and the current dustup about PC going a bit over-the-top in our culture. As a term, it may be out of use, but if you read the following you'll see there's historically, quite a bit of rolling up the shirt sleeves and really getting things done:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism
Ecofeminism relates, probably in a foundational way, to the idea I broached a couple pages back, where I was talking about conflict resolution and the natural interests of women.
Here's a repost that gives a brief on my understanding:
I know a woman [Merle Lefkoff] who did mediation and conflict resolution in the Balkans about 25 years ago. She told me that the strongest method of outreach was to work with the women, because as child bearers and family builders, they were the better people to reach out to as change agents, in that in many ways, it's men that are imbued with the tendency toward retaliation and war and that endless cycle of aggression.
It's the women who are more likely to seek change and to rebuild. If anybody remembers what Werner said a while back, "when the men fail, the women start leading".
Another example that has always held strong within me comes from a novel by Jon Fowles called The Magus. In it, he describes war as essentially a total breakdown by men of an understanding of relationship; of relationship to self, to partner, to family, to environment, and to everything that matters.
So you go for the women when you want that kind of productive change!
Read up on it and then perhaps we can discuss?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 19, 2017 - 10:07pm PT
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And just so you know, L, I'm talking about wartime conflict resolution that Merle was involved in. Not garden-variety domestic violence, or neighbors haggling about barking dogs or whatever:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars
I think what's missing in my point here is that Merle probably isn't trotting herself out as a feminist, but what she is doing is so part and parcel to the mission of the early ecofeminist movement, that it's a relevant topic here.
I know Bretton Woods 3.0 sounds removed, but if you read her bio, and look at the Ted talk again, I don't think it is. It's just that she's expanded her tools so much beyond basic feminism. But I'm saying what she is doing essentially grew out of ecofeminist thought, or something like it.
https://www.upaya.org/people/bio/merle-lefkoff-phd
I'm hitting the sack. Perhaps I will find you on this thread tomorrow?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Sep 19, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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L-
That's it. Simple, isn't it. Equal rights and opportunities.
Totally.
Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?
One (female) authors opinion...
6 Reasons Women Shouldn't Register For Selective Service
AP Photo/John Bazemore
ByAMANDA PRESTIGIACOMO
@amandapresto
February 12, 2016
Last week, four U.S. military leaders voiced their support for women registering for Selective Service at a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. Since women are now allowed in combat and such endorsements were made, the issue has made its way to the forefront in the media, even rearing its head in the latest Republican Presidential debate.
Unfortunately, many have backed this idea—on both sides of the aisle. But here’s the truth: Women registering for Selective Service is an all-around bad idea any way you slice it. This would be damaging to both our servicemen and servicewomen and would be morally reprehensible. Not to mention, the entire proposal is a stunt to appease the politically correct “social justice” agenda lauded by liberal elites who in no way have the best interest of women or our country in mind.
Here are the top six reasons, in no particular order, why women shouldn’t register for Selective Service:
1. This will create a weaker military where both servicemen and servicewomen pay the price in precious blood, because YES, women are different than men physically.
As mentioned before, combat roles are already open to women, but of course, if women registered for Selective Service and a draft was in fact implemented, the number of females on the military front lines could skyrocket (currently women only comprise about 14 percent of the military overall). This would weaken our forces and unnecessarily cost both male and female blood.
The obvious reason being: men are more equipped physically than women on the battle field. Yes, men are generally stronger than women, by a lot. This is not only borne out through every piece of anecdotal evidence ever, but also through biological studies.
Further, a study from “The Marine Corps Force Integration Plan” confirmed that this translated to the military, finding that “a mixed-gender unit was injured twice as often as an all-male unit, was less accurate with infantry weapons, and was less efficient at removing wounded troops from the battlefield.”
Here’s exactly what the study found:
Overall: All-male squads, teams and crews demonstrated higher performance levels on 69% of tasks evaluated (93 of 134) as compared to gender-integrated squads, teams and crews. Gender-integrated teams performed better than their all-male counterparts on (2) events.
Speed All-male squads, regardless of infantry MOS [Military Occupational Specialty], were faster than the gender-integrated squads in each tactical movement. The differences were more pronounced in infantry crew-served weapons specialties that carried the assault load plus the additional weight of crew-served weapons and ammunition.
Lethality: All-male 0311 (rifleman) infantry squads had better accuracy compared to gender-integrated squads. There was a notable difference between genders for every individual weapons system (i.e. M4, M27, and M203) within the 0311 squads, except for the probability of hit & near miss with the M4.
Male provisional infantry (those with no formal 03xx school training) had higher hit percentages than the 0311 (school trained) females: M4: 44% vs 28%, M27: 38% vs 25%, M16A4w/M203: 26% vs 15%.
All-male infantry crew-served weapons teams engaged targets quicker and registered more hits on target as compared to gender-integrated infantry crew-served weapons teams, with the exception of M2 accuracy.
All-male squads, teams and crews and gender-integrated squads, teams, and crews had a noticeable difference in their performance of the basic combat tasks of negotiating obstacles and evacuating casualties.
Bottom line, a weaker military would cost lives and injuries. Creating a weaker military purposefully all so liberal elites can pat themselves on the back would be grotesque.
2. All positions of the military are currently open to women; mandating military conscription will only force unwilling female participants, not advance “equality” as suggested.
As of December, all positions, including combat roles, within the military are open for women who meet the requirements. Thus, if a woman would like to serve her country in any role at all, and is capable, she can. With no restrictions on access, mandating women to register for Selective Service would, again, only force unwilling participants in the name of “equality.”
3. Daughters, sisters and wives serving will be targeted.
America has been engaged in a war in the Middle East for over a decade, and as much as the left denies it, our enemies' cultures are vastly inferior to that of the West. Simply taking a look at how women are treated would clear this up. Because this is true, imagining what would be done to a woman who is captured is completely terrifying. And to pretend that barbaric groups like ISIS and Boko Haram—who have cut off the heads of Christian children and captured Nigerian school girls—would not specifically target women is truly moronic. Women will be targeted and men will risk their lives at all costs to save women because this is America.
Not only would it be irresponsible to put a woman, and the men who would subsequently fight for her, in such obvious risk would be morally repugnant.
4. Standards will be lowered.
As mentioned above, women are generally physically weaker than men. If/when huge numbers of women are in the military (if the draft were to be implemented) you can bet physical standards will be lowered in the name of group justice. Here’s why: the same “social justice warriors” who are pushing women to register for Selective Service will be there counting every promotion and measuring enrollment of women in all positions, and when the same number of women aren’t promoted as men in combat, or unequal percentages of gender hold a position, the "warriors" will "fix" this "inequality" by implementing quotas and lowering standards. (By the way, female firefighters have already been admitted even though they have failed the fitness test and women in the police force already have lower physical standards than men.)
The truth is, the military already has quotas for women in the military, they are called "gender diversity metrics." Also, women already get promoted in the military at a rate greater than or equal to men and there is no way that's not inflated for reasons of "equality." Thus, this idea that standards will in fact be lowered becomes all the more plausible. Again, lowering standards across the board (which is more likely to happen, because “equality”), would only weaken our military.
5. A majority of women oppose a mandate for women to register for Selective Service.
According to a Rasmussen survey, only 38 percent of women agreed that women should register for Selective Service. While this is already a low number, it is likely inflated for two reason: one, the report surveyed women of all ages and not women who would potentially be mandated to serve if said draft were to be implemented, and two, the survey was taken earlier this month, a time when the draft was (and still is) dormant. Arguably, if women who were liable to the mandate were exclusively surveyed, or if this survey was taken at a time when the draft was active and thus more of a reality, the already low 38 percent of women in favor of the mandated would be even lower.
Clearly, mandating women to register for Selective Service would force women to participate in something they overwhelmingly reject.
6. It's morally reprehensible.
Obviously, this notion that fixing mythical "inequality" trumps safety of both men and women is morally reprehensible. To sum it up in one line from a man who served this fine country: “The moral point that a country which sends its wives, mothers, sisters, and daughters into the meat grinder of combat has preemptively surrendered a vital portion of its own humanity.”
For some more thoughts, read Matt Walsh’s take on the moral deficiencies involved with women registering for Selective Service here.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Sep 19, 2017 - 10:40pm PT
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TW-
My take - every INDIVIDUAL in the world is unique. Regardless of sex, color, socioeconomic status. Some people are incredibly strong and competent. Some are just zombies that are only alive because they have been coddled their whole lives.
I know a 5' 1" tall chick that is a framer in Fairbanks, AK. Year round. The turnover on her crew is ridiculous. She's been at it for 7 years, summer and winter. ( 4 hours of light, -40f). She's also a pretty good climber. Most dudes I know can't keep up with her.
That being said, stereotypes exist for a reason.
I give Asian ladies driving minivans a very wide berth.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Sep 19, 2017 - 11:48pm PT
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The Warbler wrote: Until The Olympic Games are played on a genderless field, and women win in competition there in equal numbers to men, none of your ramblings matter where my basic premise is concerned.
if that’s now your only premise, then there has never been a point for us to discuss.
You have no evidence that women can match men athletically, consistently.
of course not. because it doesn’t exist. and i’ve already argued in almost every response to you that there are likely definitional reasons [namely testosterone] as to why this generally is. that said i would never tell my daughter what she was or wasn't capable of. not because i was trying to be politically correct or because i actually thought she might be able to flap her arms hard enough that she could fly: rather because it ain't my job to define another person's potential... that is for them to figure out.
All that's left to debate is the "tone" of the discussion, and what Is or isn't sexism, and that's all purely a matter of opinion - there really are no facts involved.
i’ve explained how a bunch of your verbiage is factually incorrect. shIt, i even drew graphs at one point.
sorry, TW, this ain’t the foxnews or huffingtonpost discussion board. while much of the world is subjective, there are things that are objective facts. one of those is that when you get two distributions that overlap in the way that male and female distributions overlap on almost every ability...
then the saying that men are therefore different than women based on those distributions is at least incomplete and therefore in general consciously or unconsciously misleading.
it might make a nice click bait headline. and it might make good troll bait for forum discussion. but it is not a complete telling of the facts.
you’ve done this repeatedly and i’ve called you on it.
you say i’m worried about “tone”.
nah, i’m pointing out your factual inaccuracies.
just like I only skimmed your hero's manifesto.
cool. actually it’s not really cool, as i do appreciate your tenacity, and i’ve read all of your recent and repeated offerings to this board, so i figured you’d give me the same courtesy even if my infrequent posts due tend towards the lengthy… i guess on this topic, i’ll respect your wishes and accept that you and i are at the end of the road. i look forward to discussing something more mutually interesting and less divisive like climbing or building another day. seriously: peace.
DanaB wrote: I thought those posts were poorly thought out, had many, many logical inconsistencies, and were weak and unconvincing.
let’s hear them, then… while i’m sure a screed written at one in the morning could have been more convincing and better thought out, i am genuinely curious as to what my “many, many” logical errors were...
or are you just a drive by shooter, too chicken to really step up to the plate?
so that i'm clear with both the contributors and the lurkers: yeah, i’ve got passion [in general, ha!, but specifically] about this. yeah i’m going to come at this hard. but that doesn’t mean i think i’m infallible. i come from an arts school of thought where cultural truth, if there is or can be one!, can only be had through conversation…
so in all sincerity… come at me bro/sis… :)
even you bearbreeder… [the irony that he is on this thread where a bunch of (apparent) white folk are saying things like third wave feminism goes too far - when third wave feminism is often considered to be something that looks primarily to expand previous versions of feminism to include intersectionality between womens rights, and the rights of people of colour and trans folks - is… shall we say… interesting]
because ultimately my ideas aren’t sacred: if you don’t like these… i’ve got others. :)
the worst thing that’ll happen to me is i’ll have to apologize, like i had to once with SC seagoat when i went on temporary and unnecessary tilt at her one time.
that said, i ain’t giving up on these ideas unless i can be convinced and/or i can be shown my blind spots. which is why this board is one of the few online places i engage with. contrary to somes belief it’s not a complete! echo chamber and there truly are [sometimes] a variety of voices articulating themselves here.
that said, i haven’t seen any real engaging with what i said in the last post. just more doubling down on things i’ve already said i agreed with while i acting like i’m being contradicted… unless i missed it there hasn’t been any real engaging with the points i made regarding how some of those things we do agree upon, were being said.
and Tarbuster: man, i say this with sincerity, cause i love your presence on this board [and so while we’ve never met, it’d be a pleasure and an honour to buy you a beer someday]. but if i hear you second hand report the thoughts of the women in your life, based on your telling of what is happening on this board, i think i’ll be inspired to devote my life's energy to working on developing a teleporting computer solely so i can throw a book at my screen and it’ll pop out of your screen and smack you in the face… :) [it’s ok it’ll be a paperback…]
shIt, i bet you if you explained to me what The Warbler was saying, i’d agree with him too…
F wrote: Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?
because this society is sexist. this society is sexist towards men and women.
a society that is based on purported freedom and then conscripts people is not what it purports to be.
if you have to conscript people to fight for the system… then, the system is already dead and held up only by violence, machines and the already dead.
to hold up the opposite sexism, in this case the control of men with regards to the military, is to miss the point. from my perspective that point is:
we have systems of enslavement. not one. but plural.
and they are not unidirectional just towards women. we enslave each other with a regularity and violence that is shocking. the naked lunch is as relevant today as it was almost sixty years ago.
we [still] need feminism.
but among many other movements, we also need an actual menism. [and before you assume i’m referring to what menism means today please read and understand the next line]
we need an actual menism that is not just a reaction against something and so is not just a teenage boys manifestation of anti-feminism.
finally, TW you said earlier that you like fact based discussion.
if you’re serious, while i accept you and i are done, L has stepped up to the plate with a whole list of incredibly important questions. some of them have intuitively perplexed me as well, and so i appreciated her putting words to some of what i felt and a bunch of what i hadn’t even considered…
they are, imo, not just argumentative and are so important to the conversation at hand, that i’m going to post them again:
How can you, a father of a 13 year old daughter, a beautiful, athletic girl who cartwheels through the fields of flowers, how can you NOT be a feminist?
How can you not want for your daughter all the liberties and opportunities and advantageous circumstances that generations of women (and some men) have fought so hard for?
How can you claim to know what "feminism" truly is and not thank the stars above that your little girl is growing up in an age where her choices are so unlimited compared to even 10 years ago?
Speaking from the memory of a 12 year old, my father wanted the world for me, and he tried his best to give it to me. He filled me with dreams of success and ignited my desire for adventure, and he repeatedly told me I could do and be anything I wanted. Anything.
You seem like the sort of man who would want as much for his own daughter.
i have thought before, that while you may never see my perspective on some of this, that i have no doubt that if your daughter is even half the stubborn chip off the ole block that you are, that she’s going to teach you many, many great things. and i mean that with nothing but good intentions...
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 20, 2017 - 04:54am PT
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^^^
Yes, inquiring minds here ... and as your friends and confidants, L, we are on a need to know basis!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 20, 2017 - 04:58am PT
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I like you too, Nah000, no question about that!
Nah000 wrote to moi:
and Tarbuster: man, i say this with sincerity, cause i love your presence on this board [and so while we’ve never met, it’d be a pleasure and an honour to buy you a beer someday]. but if i hear you second hand report the thoughts of the women in your life, based on your telling of what is happening on this board, i think i’ll be inspired to devote my life's energy to working on developing a teleporting computer solely so i can throw a book at my screen and it’ll pop out of your screen and smack you in the face… :) [it’s ok it’ll be a paperback…]
Well, I don't see why my reflection of other women's perspectives is such a problem. I just see a dearth of them here, so I try to bring more onboard. Is that so wrong? Is it such a fool's errand?
And besides, regarding the books, instead of slapping me in the face with them, why don't you just shoot me some titles?
And to this one:
shIt, i bet you if you explained to me what The Warbler was saying, i’d agree with him too…
Actually, I imagine you might, if it were offered as a blind sampling of opinion, as opposed to that of his in particular, with which you've had much history. Though I think he's done a fine job explaining himself.
I find many here to be missing the simplicity of Kevin's point. That said, I think he and Cat got really close to unraveling one of his complaints about feminism at large, and from my perspective, she should have hung in there with him just a bit longer.
Now, regarding Third-wave feminism, I'm not sure Warbler is leveraging that term accurately.
The way he's been using it, to me, he just means a type of feminism that overreaches in terms of its criticality of men, which is more descriptive of some observable aspects of the current cultural narrative, or trends concerning how Feminism is practiced, by some, than it is about Third-wave feminism per se.
Heck, in looking at all these definitions (modalities, really, of which there are many) of feminism extant, I am no doubt, a feminist, of one stripe or another. Ideologically, I support women's causes. To Warbler's point, and to the degree that I agree with him, I think any movement has to be self-critical and self-reflective, if not, it risks falling into fanaticism. And to clarify, it's not the movement that has to be self-critical, but those who fly under its banner.
To repeat: what I just said about self-criticality and self-reflection cannot be leveled at feminism on the whole, or even at Third-wave feminism in particular. Again, it's really more a criticism of current behavioral trends in our culture, concerning the flawed execution of feminist principles, than it is of those specific feminist ideologies, or the many, many good people who champion them smartly and get the work done that needs to be done.
(If there are women who are currently angered about a proposed patriarchal oppression (which may indicate a kind of paternalistic male-ness in the greater sociopolitical and socioeconomic paradigm, as opposed to overtly all males), and it has spurred them into action to do good, even if the underlying anger is somehow misdirected or unfounded, then so be it. God knows they've had cause in the not-so-distant past, and currently, still have cause in some regions)
Third-wave feminism is actually quite complicated to understand, (I just read the entire Wikipedia entry on Third-wave feminism) and not nearly as grounded in world problems and solutions as is Ecofeminism. Not to say, upon careful examination of third wave feminism, that it doesn't broach meaningful and important themes. It does, in my opinion.
Note, one must read the entirety of these entries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism
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I don't think I can do any better than that regarding these topics.
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Yet, I still would like to have the tangential discussion with L, concerning my last two posts to her.
L?
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 20, 2017 - 05:41am PT
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Women don't play blues with the feeling the great male blues players do
You use Stevie Ray Vaughn as an example? You're kidding, right? He's a great technician, for sure, but as a musician he couldn't carry Elizabeth Cotten's jockstrap.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 20, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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A Stevie Ray Vaughn simulation? That's perfect. That's what he was, a simulation of a bluesman.
Here's the real thing:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 20, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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Back in the old old days of Camp 4 long before all this modern st00pid sterile sh!t going on now there.
Deep in the winter, when no one was around period,
Walkin past that old far in the back of Camp 4 wooden outhouse that's gone now,
you'll hear Warbler playing the blues deep into the night form inside there .....
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Sep 20, 2017 - 08:14am PT
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My bad Warbler. Danielle's brother was on guitar and she was on bass (she did win a Blues Music Award one year for her bass playing and the album with that song won album of the year). Love that version. I find it remarkable you just couldn't groove on it and felt compelled to "prove" Stevie Ray is "better" and you are more qualified than others to decide what real feeling is when it comes to playing the blues. Whatever.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 20, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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Merry led every pitch of Black Primo with no falls ....
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 20, 2017 - 08:39am PT
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I had to batman the rope on the Black Primo crux.
Merry also led all the crux pitches on Marys Tears/Crucifix, did Freestone 5 times, lead all the pitches on Astroman, and ain't no feminist .....
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Sep 20, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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So much to respond to!
The Taco Blues Project
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1663042&tn=440
I have a six disc player,(aging now it's from '04) I don't switch out the discs anymore
Discs in no particular order but as they are loaded
1) Crosby, Stills,Nash &Young - De Ja vue
2) Stevie Ray 'Sky's Crying' a live compilation
3)&(4) some old live dead shows
5)live Bob Marley
6)Counting Crows
I love women for the potential
I love that if you think about (ripped off from the aging actress,Betty White)
We should call bad ass climbers 'Pussey's'
And not say that they have 'Ballz'
'cause those velvet envelopes can take a pounding
& Come back Stronger and still give life
a fact. . . that Balls only contributed to
& they live despised; in a sack
Exposed to tragedy swing there like that
Edit: this page was inspirational - Certainly the Blues connection
the start is well protectable 5.8 that follows twin cracks
the crux (.10c, pictured below) is the crunched corner, moving left
It favors a shorter stature The next roof system!? Not so much!
It is a an all time 6star classic
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Sep 20, 2017 - 09:58am PT
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Hey Kevin,
That is pretty effin cool, about your blues roots, your great great grandfather and the Camp 4 outhouse festival. Still playing?
Arne
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L
climber
Tiptoeing through the chilly waters of life
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Sep 20, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
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F -- Everyone should be equally obligated to register with the selective service and sent off to die as cannon fodder in meaningless conflicts. But they aren't. Why is that?
OK F, let's DO compare apples to orangutans, shall we?
First off, apples are a fruit without hair. Orangutans are not a fruit and.......er.....wait a minute.
Ya ever heard of a little country called ISRAEL?
Two years of conscripted service for every Israeli citizen over the age of 18, and that means men AND women. So there you have it. You stand corrected.
Israel has one of the best (if not THE best) military machines in the world. And they make their women fight just like their men. Why is that, do ya think? Or don't you?
And a very good friend of mine has a 26 year old daughter who's part of an elite female combat team who, yes indeed, go out and KILL THE ENEMY. Regularly. From close range...not just lobbing bombs at them from over yonder.
Now Nah000 does a very good job of explaining why the whole conscription/war machine thing is detestable and part of the unsustainable patriarchy that currently controls the nations of the world. I couldn't agree with him more.
Women fighting in wars makes no sense to me. But then, neither does men fighting in wars.
But you wanted to compare apples to orangutans, so there you have it. Crystal?
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Sep 20, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
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yes indeed, go out and KILL THE ENEMY. Regularly.
Hella cool, pun intended
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Sep 20, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
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L-thinks she has the smoking gun with the Israelis then uses mockery to combat Kevin's defense of his own viewpoints.
Let me guess L, I think the apple represents "sugar and spice and everything nice" but I'm having trouble with the hairy creature. Is that us? Good God why didn't you say so?
Kevin pinks back with another touché and on and on we go.
Arne
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