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Jorge
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:27pm PT
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A few more, mostly to show the line of Mother Earth...perhaps explains the allure...
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 28, 2006 - 11:30pm PT
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Well, shoot, those Black PRimo shots, must be taken while we were on Jigsaw? who was it?
Looks like Yabo and Bachar
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2006 - 08:51am PT
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Welcome back, George. Hope you had a nice trip. Great thread isn't it?
Rick, I wasn't part of any of the drama on Jigsaw. I think that picture of you was taken by George. But I love that back story of George and Kevin tricking their unsuspecting cohorts into leading the 'death' pitches. Someone is going to have to fess up to leading the last pitch.
The lunch we had together in Denver was pretty special, at least for me. To spend some time with you and George after all these years was great. I was a little disappointed that you looked so young and fit. I don't wish anyone any ill will, but compared to George and me I doubt that anyone would believe we were in the Valley together. Must be the Italian blood line, like my bride.
So far, with everyone I have been able to re-connect with, the feeling and impact has been the same. All the great times come roaring back and within half an hour, we are finishing each other's sentences. Talk about a time machine.
You raise an interesting point on the bolting and runout issues on those early 70s routes. I have never placed much importance on it until it occurred to me recently--while reading posts--that the bolting and runouts may have been one of the first unique contributions our generations made. Based on comments here on ST, very few climbers today have followed that path. Ed and I have had lots of discussions about those times and I have tried to articulate why we did what we did—and we were all doing it to one degree or another. I want to look at the first ascent data, but now that so many of the players are posting on ST, I think a thread where we can try to figure it out is in order.
Roger
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Nov 29, 2006 - 11:01am PT
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Steve, that was a hair raising tale of big wave surfing. That headwall invoked the same analogy for me as I remember. I didn’t know fig was off the white stuff back then. Great job, Largo’s right you da man
Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said.
More nice pics Jorge!
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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Yeah Kev, I do vaguely remember something about finding a better way on toprope, but had we gone back up with Kauk? I just don't remember. I do remember that on that dike pitch, I was pretty far out--I think on a single nine mil-- with Bridwell belaying, trying to work out some moves when this voice comes up saying "I don't think I can catch you if you peel..." that snapped me out of feeling pretty good and thus putting in that first bolt in lower than I was happy with. He was probably right, but then you went up, stacked some pins to protect going higher still to another bolt placement, before Largo pretty much fired it... Or am I combining days? If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Rick's thing on bolt placing ethics is right on. I'm gonna start a new thread here with some photos of the east face of lower, one from a helicopter...
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 29, 2006 - 08:37pm PT
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George wrote:
> If only I had a guidebook to refer to, it might all make more sense, but alas I have none but in storage...
Fortunately you distributed a few thousand backup copies to fans worldwide, so here is your topo of Jigsaw, pitch 4:
If you want to see the full page, just let me know.
Thanks for showing us how to do guidebooks right!
Not to mention the awesome action photos and stories in Yosemite Climber and above.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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"Rick you could rest your case on your summation on why the bolts were so spaced. Well said."
Yes! I copied it so that I could show my boyfriend later. He loves those routes and sees the style that you guys chose back then as something to presently aspire to on new routes.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 09:22pm PT
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Those are good points Ricky brought up per our feelings about bolting back then. Messner, with his "Murder of the Impossible" motto, was on our minds; but we also knew he was a child of the Alps and big mountains, and in the 70s, both venues were not short of huge natural lines to knock off. Our situation was different.
At Joshua Tree we still had natural lines to bag and in doing dozens of first ascent out there I only had to place a handful of bolts. However at Tahquitz and Suicide, and later in Yosemite, most of the obvious crack systems had been bagged, which left us the open faces. So we accepted we could prosecute the Messner "no bolt" ethic in absolute terms, but we wouldn't be able to do many new routes. Our compromise was to consider that bolts were legitimate but that their use had to be justified, and simply being scared was not enough justification to start drilling. If it had been, all those Middle C. routes would have been sport bolted bottom to top. The result is that people usually pushed things to the edge of danger and possible physical harm–sometimes farther–and then sunk a bolt.
This ethic, running the line far as your mind could handle, was the thing that vitalized the game for most of us. The idea was to acquire some modicum of mastery and self control, and you did so out on the sharp end. I went bouldering if I wanted to merely crank hard moves. If I wanted the full dose, I had to get out there on new terrain with a few friends dedicated to finding out just how far we could go and get away with it. Basically we were in it for the excitement, the more the better. The idea that 35 years later I'd be writing about any of this never entered my mind. I was just worried about the next move.
What hasn't been mentioned here is Ricky A's blood-curdling roped soloing that he carried out on Middle. If I'm not mistaken, he rope soloed a stack of the routes we've been talking about. That, ladies and gentlemen, is a very scary proposition, then, and now.
JL
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 29, 2006 - 09:27pm PT
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So how did one rope solo a scarey slab/face in the pre-auto-feeding device era (so far as I'm aware)? Did you drag bights and hope that the didn't catch on anything so that you had to fiddle with it less often? It seems hard to imagine being able to mess with a clove while doing that kind of free climbing.
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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Well, yeah, you got that right about up there feelin' free, just thinking of going up. Rick is of course right on with the ethic we were operating under... We felt that bolts were basically to be avoided, so you were honor-bound to stretch em out. Good times. Yeah, that Black Primo dike pitch we all had a piece of, that worked out pretty well. I really need to see a guidebook. I remember so little, but your mention of a real nice pitch above rings a bell...
I'm gonna overload the system with photos, and please bear with me if I repeat..
a couple more Jigsaw, a bouldering, 3 Orange Peels (kinda a minor, but fairly technical slab I remember, and then a string of Mother Earths.
I may have to start a thread of my (at the time) unclimbed big ideas that time left...I'm so out of touch, I really wonder if some of these have been done.
I forgot to load the Jigsaws./.I'll get to em..
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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and mother earth: I particularly like the "staging"\
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:37pm PT
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and then, above the traverse ledges on Mother Earth:
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Jorge
climber
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Nov 29, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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And then more Jigsaw
and Roger Breedlove:
and no, ROger those shots of Black Primo were not tilted. They look pretty right on..
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Fellow Anchorites,
Here are some prototypes for the pinbolt and Leeper replica bolthanger. As I mentioned above, I still have plenty of stainless 3/8" SMC hangers that look exactly like any SMC already in place. These pups are plasma cut from 3/16" stainless steel angle and are massively beefy. The pinbolt eye profile was taken directly from a thick CMI blade. The beef has some utility beyond being sexy and secure. The Leeper replicas would probably take a pretty good rock strike with a 3/8" stainless machine bolt attachment (I use 1/2" hole size stainless Rawl 5-piece bolts).
This shot shows the pinbolt in profile. The 3/8" stainless steel cap screw would be epoxied into a hole drilled once the shaped pinbolt has been driven into its final position. The pinbolts start out uniform thickness of 3/16" and will need to be customized to fit the individual placements. A set of conventional LAs or blades could be used as an approximate feeler gauges to match the crack characteristics. Since the epoxied cap screw acts as a bolt, these pinbolts would be a little different in performance requirements from a conventional piton placement which relies entirely on resistance to rotation and shifting. What would seem to be crucial is that the tip area is solidly engaged against rotation around the bolt axis.
These pinbolts and replica hangers would seem to have a lifespan well beyond 100 years, possibly several. After having placing more than a hundred 3/8" mild steel split shafts with great effort and usually under duress, I sincerely regret not having used stainless steel to equip my routes. All those old bolts, even the big ones, become suspect after a relatively short time as we all know.
The easiest thing about re-equipping Space Babble is the low low bolt and pin count. The future will be overjoyed to clip into any of this heavyweight hardware. In fact, I can't wait to clip in to this stuff myself. Any complaints? hahaha
Cheers,
Steve
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thanks for working on solutions Steve. I was worried about freeze thaw cycles but now i see that you also drill a hole to keep the thing in place.
Which of course brings up the question. Since you're drilling a hole anyway, and since the pin might need to be laborious customized for it's placement, is the pin part mostly a moral placeholder to show that the drilled protection was a legitimate substitute for once natural but destructive and unsustainable hammered pro?
Peace
Karl
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Karl- This is all about original flavor which is to say maintaining appearance and mystery. Fixed pins are much more subtle than shiny bolts which are usually placed out in the optimal spot with respect to perceived rope travel and hence more noticeable from near or far. When I think back to climbing the first pitch of Space Babble, the three fixed pins were such a joy once you discovered them up tucked into each ear of rock along the way. The crux Leeper buttonhead is virtually invisible from below and doesn't really show itself until you are at the last pin. The protection really spurred me along and I would love to preserve that delightful sense of urgent exploration for future enthusiasts. Topos do enough to dispel adventure. A line of four modern bolts would be a very different experience even though the fall potential would essentially remain the same.
I just happen to have a big attachment to this particular route. The larger question (especially in the light of bolting work parties at large in the land!)is whether to restore older routes to original look and feel. I just bought a twist press for punching holes and am set up to knock these things out. Should the East Buttress of middle be equipped with stainless steel replica strap hangers? Bolt ladders on the Nose set up in period stainless? I am working on an all stainless rappel set up for the upcoming 50th anniversary of the Nose. Replica Bill "Dolt" Feurer double hole hangers and welded 1/2" stainless chain! I just have to figure out a good process to blacken stainless if any metalheads are out there.
I hope this answers your questions. This is all about process and I value everyone's input especially anchorites like yourself.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2006 - 04:43pm PT
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Very cool ideas, Steve. I was agreeing with Karl about placing pins and drilling at the same time, but I think that you are right in your sense of preserving the feel of clipping into a fixed pin. There have been other comments on the issue of the difference between bolts versus fixed pins on ST in the past. Aside from the need to reset fixed pin and the inability to check the condition of a bolt, there was always a difference in moving towards a bolt that was visible versus a hidden fixed pin.
However, I am trying to think of fixed pin placements where there may not be an adequate corner wall to fix the bolt to--a degree of memory that I no longer process.
Roger
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Steve
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
"Karl- This is all about original flavor which is to say maintaining appearance and mystery. Fixed pins are much more subtle than shiny bolts which are usually placed out in the optimal spot with respect to perceived rope travel and hence more noticeable from near or far. When I think back to climbing the first pitch of Space Babble, the three fixed pins were such a joy once you discovered them up tucked into each ear of rock along the way."
Sounds like a fine idea to me.
"The crux Leeper buttonhead is virtually invisible from below and doesn't really show itself until you are at the last pin."
I've looked up at that thing, squinting to see the pins and unable to spot the bolt. Maybe you'll guide me up it!
"The protection really spurred me along and I would love to preserve that delightful sense of urgent exploration for future enthusiasts. Topos do enough to dispel adventure. A line of four modern bolts would be a very different experience even though the fall potential would essentially remain the same.
I just happen to have a big attachment to this particular route. "
Agreed on those aesthetics. It's a beautiful thing to love a route and serve it.
"I hope this answers your questions. This is all about process and I value everyone's input especially anchorites like yourself."
I think it's great stuff Steve and welcome it. The question is whether this high standard of care can become the expected norm, or merely the standard of excellance practiced by those with the time, money, effort and care to value it enough to modify the gear, glue, and need for various sizes in order to fit placements.
That would be great. As a lazy person, I'm afraid many routes wouldn't get worked on if this was the case, but hey, I know folks who work on routes and rebolt and they aren't lazy people. They take pride in their work.
And as it sits, those folks are mostly staying on the community-safe side of dealing with the fixed pin issue, either leaving pin placements empty without a bolt nearby, or replacing critical fixed pins with more fixed pins.
So it seems like a step forward and a clear enough statement regarding avoiding the slipperly slope of more bolting, that pin placement issues can be resolved without losing ground on any bolting standards.
peace and thanks
Karl
Edit:
What's your take on fixed angle placements? I was thinking of the fixed angle on the crux of East Buttress or El Cap. It was there for many years and eventually fell out. It was replaced by a bolt with Steck's approval (afterwards) but later chopped. It's possible to use modern gear to protect this move, which is twice as hard as any other on the climb, but the solutions are a hassle and less than ideal, needing special gear or climbing up to downclimb.
This is just an example but if replacing fixed pins with enduring pin/bolt solutions catches on, these issues will come up and it's good to discuss that in advance?
Peace
Karl
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Steve: Is your idea to place solid anchors that look like pins, but are actually bolts, and would be placed in the same locations as the original pitons? That looks to be the case - quite intriguing.
Stainless steel seems invariably shiny, and I'm not sure how you can get around that. Paint is pretty temporary.
Chouinard pins were generally a brown/black, except bongs. So they blend in very well, especially with a bit of rust, and maybe some sand/pine needles for camouflage. Likewise Leeper hangers. The SMC hangers were shiny stainless (or plated?), as were the SMC pins, but the latter at least were less common. Most of the homemade hangers were aluminum, often fairly blocky - so they stand out more.
As for anchorites - well, who'd've thunk the thread would drift into a discussion of asceticism?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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This is a question of holding the center as the edges gyrate through time is it not? The questions are still fresh.....
Karl- I don't have the capability to form angles just yet but somebody at BD could likely be enticed into a run of stainless baby angles which could be notched and epoxied in place neatly. To pursue the pinbolt option on an angle shape you would have to square up and fill the area adjacent to the eye so that a hole could be drilled through sufficient steel to allow a 5/16" or larger stainless cap screw. Twist shearing might force you into thicker plate stock and a heavier overall finished shape and profile. The challenge would be keeping theft down by making the installation conspicuously intentional and yet unobtrusive. I would love to have a run of stainless steel Lost Arrows but I don't think anybody could resist the urge to snag such a shiny prize. I plan on stamping some date info and the word "fixed pinbolt" in plain sight on the blades.
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