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climber
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R : runout
R/RX : runout requires influence of (prescription) drugs
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 04:24pm PT
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Interesting questions on what to do, if anything, to resurrect old run-out slab routes. It was disheartening to read that only a few of the Middle climbs get any traffic. We loved those routes. Unless there is a current topo, modern bolts, and a reason to venture onto slabs to learn how to climb them, I cannot image that anyone will do them after Karl expires. Long live Karl.
Josh’s summary of the skills of gym climbers on steep plastic reminds me why I don’t like gyms too much--you have to be very strong. Whereas on slabs, if you pull too hard with your hands, your feet skid off.
Maybe Chris should publish a ‘Stonemasters’ topo guide to the Valley and the Meadows. “The Road to BY,” is a potential title. Or “Climb the BROS” (Bolted Run-Out Slabs.) Greg could recruit folks to replace the old bolts and new topos with detailed fall risk potentials, using an objective subjective rating system. Bachar gets the final say. Introduction by Largo.
Maybe we should advertise slab climbing for weaklings with lots of heart—maybe the banner should read: A big ego but weak fingers got you down? Try Yosemite’s BROS. Guarantee to improve you sex life.
Oh, and we need to get a couple of spreads in Rock and Ice, Climbing, and Alpinist. We’ll have those BROS cooking again in no time.
I think you are right John about the relative difficulty of the early slab routes versus the later ones. The standards shot up really quickly—not the run-outs, but the actual move difficulty.
Buzz
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durban
climber
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Steve: "It is becoming abundantly clear that us old timers are going to be the ones to preserve and restore these gems."
Please do! I'm a younger climber and very much hope to do some of these routes as my skill improves, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. While of course I don't want to take any huge falls, I need to know that the bolt way down there would hold if I do!
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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When desperately run out he could be heard to say. Sh#t I could be home watching the f*#king History Channel and drinking beer.
JDF
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Also, one of the routes I never did on Middle was the Powell/Reed, which supposedly had some hard fac climbing on it. I was never quite sure where this route actually went. Anyone here ever done it? It was a sort of precursor to the other stuff on that and other faces.
JL
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 05:09pm PT
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I climbed it, John. I included my inpressions in my Middle article. From memory (and re-reading the that section of the article) the climb follows a shallow crack system that only comes within about 300' feet of the ground. Getting up to the base is just like all the other routes on the Northeast Face--wandering around, mantleing, smearing, stemming, pulling sideways on flakes, and searching for protection. I don't think the climbing is very hard if you find a way through the thin spots. Once you get to the crack, the climb is less interesting since there is (was) lots of dirt.
I never did the Sacherer Fredericks. Has anyone done that route? It had a scary reputation.
Roger
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Jorge
climber
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Hey Roger, Kev, John L and all...Enjoying the discussion. Gosh if we ever gave this much thought to anything back then it would have had to involve girls. I just remember first exploring over on Middle cause I had been taken over to Glacier Pt Apron by Tim Harrison to see his efforts on Anchors Away. I thought it was pretty cool, a lot more technical than other Apron routes and I thought I might like to take on a similar project somewhere, being an old east coast face climber type. I think I first started up the first couple pitches of Mother Earth about then...I think with Eric Schoen: Mellow-the pros good, the holds are good I'm coming down-Brutus. Got excited and got you ROger and Kevin back to check out some other possibilities.
As far as ethics of runouts, I would look back to the Brits, who have a long history of this, since they were really the standard bearers for bold climbing. It was just understood to be good form to be judicious in placing bolts, a compromise form of protection if there ever was one. The Brits all during this period--and remember, Mt Magazine was (aside from the geeky Summit) the only climbing rag-- firmly in the bolts are bad camp. We just took it upon ourselves given the history of the bolt in Yosemite's featureless granite, to combine local conditions with an understood ethic of the time. I can still hear the rants of Ken Wilson (Mt's editor) about the "progression" to rap-bolting.
SHoo-eeee, Now I'm overreflecting...
I will say that it is a bit ironic that Jardine--a guy later known for overprotecting himself by way of extreme hangdogging--is first known for launching out on the bold unknown face. He had done the DNB and knew the possibilities. Which brings to mind, I have to wonder if the DNB would not be so popular today were it not so well documented with detailed topos. Yeah, yeah, I bear some responsibility etc, but until I did the route with a notebook and pencil in my pocket it was anything but a cruise because of the uncertain routefinding required.
(And THAT brings to mind, Kevin W, our little adventure up there, that got your mom a nice introduction to rockclimbing, you some burned hands, and me unique bragging rights to having caught a belayer fall.)
and what's the big whoop about ego? So what if extending yourself sometimes rewards your sense of self? Nothing would be invented, nothing would be pushed without it.
Two-cents jorge
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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George: Tell us more about the belayer fall. It sounds ... intriguing.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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he-he...my thoughts exactly MH!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2006 - 08:29pm PT
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You're a jinks, George. Do you remember that you and I started up the DNB, and I got the lead off the ledge with the mantle. I popped with my toe just under my hand, and landed ackwardly, twisting my ankle. Took me out for a while.
It is fun to try to piece all this stuff together again, isn't it.
Great observation about Ray. Anyone got a bead on Ray to get him to join us?
Roger
Oh, yeah. Spend some time getting the belayer fall right. It is a great story you might as well tell.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Thought this discussion needed a photo.
Looking back at Tobin Sorenson and Rick Accomazzo on our FA of Piece of Grass in The meadows.
Can’t remember if there were runouts or not on this route but bolts were put in when there were stances. Here were three egos that just wanted to see what was growing up in that hole way off the deck. I always though when you really needed a bolt there was a place to put one in. funny there were not many curxes out from the bolts on a most climbs.
Sure are a lot of routes out there to hone you mental skills before venturing out on your own test piece. The more patience you are in your preparation the less the runouts effect you.
Its all about you and the route right?
Mike
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Great discussion lately. Clearly the first step is to upgrade and replace the old original fixed gear on the classics. I don't know about you rushmonkeys but the images and tales really make me want to get out on these things again. The advantage of a fairly tight community like the Valley faceclimbers is that it would be easy to get consensus on alterations to routes if necessary. There are definitely some problems to solve to restore the routes in a lasting way. Lots of the fixed pins on Middle are KB's for which no stainless steel equivalent currently exists (I am working on it).
My familiarity with these climbs and the people involved in their creation had everything to do with my desire to repeat them once I was ready. Articles and forum discussion will hopefully put these classics back on the table so that the history will work its magic. I have long maintained that people will eventually grow tired of heavily bolted lines and return to the roots.
You have to put in your time on Middle Rock to feel comfortable pushing yourself. The base traverse was always a special environment because of the commonality of desire among the few regulars for that smooth contact power that made it all seem reasonable. I did Stoner's Highway as a matter of course every season just to truely get on my feet at the outset. I think most people worked themselves into form before taking on the next project. Contrary to some earlier posts, I think that the Glacier Point Apron saw development continuously and matched the advances in runout climbing elsewhere in the Valley. The skills necessary to put protection concerns out of my mind and just climb is very tied to frictionland, where the usual rules can be twisted severely.
With regard to any specialized rating system to describe this type of climbing, I think that rank ordering the routes in some approximate way based on overall level of engagement is about all that is really necessary. Try Stoner's first Space Babble or Mother Earth well down the line. Climbing on Middle Rock has always been an adventure. I remember some friends returning wide eyed and sputtering after climbing The Flakes (5.8) on my first visit to Yosemite. Sorry, but I will never be able to see Middle or The Royal Arches as a ghost town while we are all still around.
Ahhhh The Absinthe Of Mallet! Great route!
Cheers
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Don't worry George, even with a supertopo, folks still get lost on the DNB. I hear stories all the time.
and even if you don't get macro-lost, you're sure to get a bit micro-lost. I've done pitch 7 a number of times but still wander up and down all over the thing before I finally connect the dots and reach the stupid end of the first cruxy bit. The Super Topo shows two versions, both now rated 5.10r (couldn't agree more) and I swear I always start on one and finish on the other.
Roger wrote
" It was disheartening to read that only a few of the Middle climbs get any traffic. We loved those routes. Unless there is a current topo, modern bolts, and a reason to venture onto slabs to learn how to climb them, I cannot image that anyone will do them after Karl expires. Long live Karl."
Karl's living long by not getting too frisky on these routes anymore myself. I did do Paradise lost for the first time a couple years back. Pretty darn fun. Still a challenge and scary but doable for me due to the fact it's doesn't have really desperate cruxes. I go back to Stoners every couple years but usually bail before some of the real headscratcher pitches. There's one variation on some weird face section above pitch 4 or 5 that might actually have a retrobolt but I'm not sure and that variation is reputed to be much harder and still dang scary.
Started up Quicksilver again a couple years back when I heard the bolts were replaced. I got lost on the second pitch and found myself on some old 1/4 anchors that I eventually realize were further left from the actual second belay anchors. I figured it was the wrong day and we top roped the route that I was actually one (runout and needing rebolting) and then went and climbed "sport climbs" like "cat dancing."
I still do stuff like Mid-life crisis and Goodrich, stuff I've done lots and have wired.
Some routes like Stoners, Quicksilver, Freewheelin, and others have had their bolts upgraded thanks to folks like Shaggy, Bernie, Mellisa and others. Paradise Lost needs more help and Space Babble is pure death.
Roger asked about Sacherer Fredricks. I tried to see it from Kor Beck a couple years back. I've never heard of anyone doing it and all the obvious lines looked like you'd need crampons and grappling hooks to get by the vegetation.
Peace
Karl
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Pretty funny Mike, you don't remember if there were runouts.Yeah, there are. After doing the traversing section of the second pitch you climb up thru the crux and then 35 feet to the belay. When I did it I did it as my first climb ever with Kris Solem. After he led the 2nd pitch I was half way up the 3rd pitch, there is no pro on the pitch, and he told me if I fell he was going to cut the rope cause the 2 manky 1/4" bolts would never hold. I knew I had a good partner right then and there. Anyway, I think the 1st pitch has 4 pieces, the 2nd is reasonable although a bit spicy getting to the belay, but the 3rd has no pro, although it is only 5.9 and gets continually easier as you climb.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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"Can’t remember if there were runouts or not on this route but bolts were put in when there were stances."
Pretty runout, and probably not done much in the recent past since the bolt on the first pitch had broken off. However the bolts are good now and I know at least some folks are doing it. I easily found the missing bolt on the first pitch since there was only one good stance (bolt had been sheared off - avalanche? fall?).
"Here were three egos that just wanted to see what was growing up in that hole way off the deck."
Cool! I love climbing new stuff to explore some strange feature up on a wall...as long as that feature doesn't turn out to have a wasp nest.
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graham
Social climber
Ventura, California
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Jan and Greg, Great to hear you’ve done the route and even fixed the bolt(s) funny how the spice isn’t a memory for me but more the folk I did the route with. Jan I hear what you’re saying about being comfortable with your partner. There were only about four people I was comfortable with either simo climbing or being on sketchy terrain with, Rick was one of them. Sure a lot of you guys now would be quite solid too.
It’s good to hear all the work reequipping some of these routes. There are some I would like to get back on sooner than later and I really like those long 5/16” stainless suckers with a couple of 3/8” at the belay.
I was talking to Kauk recently about middle and he mentioned a lot of rock fall. I know first hand the havoc that can play on bolts. Maybe a helmet is in order like when those old dads need them walking on the sidewalk.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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From George Meyers' Yosemite Climbs 1982 ("Yellow Guide")
Appendix II
Difficult Free Climbs Compared
Face/Slab
5.9
New Diversions
C.S. Concerto
Fecophilia
Easy Wind
The Mouse King
The Gardener Did It
The Prune
The Prude
Marginal
The Mouth
Flakey Foont
Goodrich Pinnacle, Right
Patio Pinnacle, Left
Patio Pinnacle, Regular
Coonyard Pinnacle
Angelica
Angel's Approach
Lucifer's Ledge
Higher Cathedral Spire, Regular Route
Lower Cathedral Spire, Regular Route
Quicksilver
5.10a
Bikini Beach Party
Black Sunday
God's Creation
Punch Bowl
Paradise Lost
DNB
Cat Dancing
Deep Throat
Patio to Coonyard
Tears of Joy
Spooky Tooth
5.10b
Trough of Justice
No Falls Wall
Slab Happy Pinnacle, Center
The Peanut
Church Bowl Tree
Hoppy's Favorite
Freewheelin'
The Joker
5.10c
W'allnuts
Space Doubt
Cheek
Ugly Duckling
Chain Reaction
Church Bowl Tree
Maxine's Wall
Benzoin and Edges
Rurp Rape
Mother's Lament
Pharoh's Beard, Right
Stoner's Highway
Shake and Bake
5.10d
Axis
Old Five Ten
Cuthulu
Movin' Like a Stud
Dead Baby
Misty Beethoven
Sailin' Shoes
Afterglow
Elephantiasis
5.11a
Black Heads
Moon Age Daydream
Pterodactyl Terrace, Right
Swan Slab Aid Crack
Greasy but Groovy
Strange Energy
Ochre Fields
Anchors Away
Lean Years
Jigsaw
5.11b
The Void
The Wedge
Preface
Christina
The Call
Tightrope
Mouth to Perhaps
Green Dragon
Orange Peel
Black Rose
5.11c
Gunks Revisited
Koko Ledge, Center
Skunk Weed
General Hospital
Shakey Flakes
Flakes Away
Spiderman
5.11d
Abstract Corner
Rocket Man
White Zone
Annette Funicello
Samurai Crack
Chiropodist Shop
Ephemeral Clogdance
Rainbow Bridge
Brass Knuckles
5.12
King Snake
Hotline
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The DNB also gets done alot because it's in the book and regarded as a classic. When those other routes end on Powell-Reed ledges, the DNB continues up climbing that's not total choss crap.
Opinions vary somewhat. Many think the combination of scary thin face climbing followed by physical chimneys is a pain in the butt. They say DNB stands for "Do Not Bother"
The first time I did it, I thought we had it made when we finished the last 5.9 pitch (all those crazy face pitches were rated 5.9 ma but the one crux move) Nothing but 5.7-5.8 to the top. Ouch. Smooth Chimney humping reaching the Kat walk in time to navigate it in the dark. Not hard, just grunt.
The Ho Chi Mihn trail is arguably a better variation to the Dnb. Stays technical and less wrassling.
I was climbing Pee Pee pillar late morning one time, must have been 10am or later. Some guys with one rope start up the 5.7 first pitch of Dnb and like most folks move and talk about what a sandbag it is at 5.7. I just have to ask them and indeed, they think they're just going to go fire the whole dang route! Headlamps? Nope. Not even a topo. Adventure is one thing but I knew they were doomed. Jesus, I had to talk some sense into those guys. Early start OK? The DNB could also stand for Dark Night Buttkicker for all the folks that get benighted on it.
Peace
Karl
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Mimi
climber
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Thanks Ed for taking the time to post such a nice tick list of face routes.
Cheers,
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