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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jun 20, 2016 - 06:22pm PT
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And to think Roger spent so many years in California and still loves Ohio! Maybe we are all missing something? At best it was an entertaining game compared to the last two.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
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If you are a defense player you cannot touch the rim if the ball is still in play
I think it would be safe to say that I've spent more time on this blocked shot than anyone here.
It seems pretty safe also to say that the ball had not touched the backboard, but it is very very close. A different camera angle could show the refs and my judgment to be incorrect. Clearly the ball was not on the rim. Just as clearly, Mr. James hand was on the rim.
However, Roger, I'm not following your line on the ball being in play. The ball was never out of play. CAVs rebounded and took it back up court.
You said that a defender cannot touch the rim if it's still in play. It was in play and Mr. James touched the rim.
I'm not going to look it up right now, but it used to be illegal to "grab" the rim on an offensive move. The rule was changed and I believe it reads that a player can grab the rim to protect himself from injury.
Finally,
A Player Shall Not:
f. Trap the ball against the face of the backboard. (To be a trapped ball, three elements must exist simultaneously. The hand, the ball and the backboard must all occur at the same time. A batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball.)
Mr. James trapped the ball on the glass, he literally rolled it across the glass before releasing it.
The block was not legal.
All that be as it may be, the game and series turns on 1000's of events and the Cavaliers are to be congratulated on a fine series of performances.
LeBron is an excellent baller and appears to be a very good dad. Does his huge ego leave him open to some goodhearted teasing? You bet.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
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god knows that was a tremendous game/series/season. Truely more productive for the human spirit than any political goings on right now..
Just to be specific for specific's sake(and since the season is over and there's nuthin left to do, but talk).
IF; the defender(LeBonus), touches the ring or net before he touches the ball, FOUL! STOP play!
No, If's, And's, or Butts;)
The scientific question is; Did he touch the ball first??
Wouldn't want to take anything away from , The King tho. It was an AMAZING series, i really reveled over his second 41'r tho!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jun 20, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
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doods questioning the legality of the block, eh
well, that's rich. The NBA has not strictly policed any of its putative rules -- most notably the "carry" rule, which, if strictly policed, Curry would have violated dozens of times in any given game, or the travel rule, which is blatantly violated by everyone -- for years, if not decades
if you're dissecting a block this finely in Game 7 of the NBA Finals -- it simply will not be called, and that is the only morally defensible outcome
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
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Z, two comments.
First the ball was still in play as you point out, but the shot was not. Once James smashed the ball against the glass the shot was over and the ball was rebounded by J.R. Smith, I think.
Second, James did not trap the ball simultaneously with his hand, the backboard and the ball. He touched the ball before it hit the glass. This seems like splitting hairs, but I think the intent of this rule is to clarify what happens when the block is exactly between the allowed block of a ball which has not touched the glass and goaltending if it has touched the glass before the hand. The rule basically establishes a tie breaker and says that in the knife edge space between allowed and not allowed, the rule says you cannot argue touching the ball and the backboard at the same time is not goaltending. Keeps folks like us in line, so to speak.
In any case, as far as I know no Warrior player or coach objected to the no-call. I trust the folks who know the rules better than we ever will to argue violations, especially when the the basket could have otherwise turned the game.
Unless, of course, this is an Internet argument, in which case the real world does not apply. NB: Those of us who live in Cleveland do not really believe that the Cavs actually beat the Warriors--who would believe that? It is just impossible. If they can fake the moon landing they can fake the Cavs coming back down three to one against the team with the best regular season record.
However, I am curious so I have asked my expert--basketball mavin and appalent law attorney--to comment on this arcania. Who knows, maybe the Warrior really won in the real world. Not that we care in Cleveland: we live in Believeland.
Given these seemly very specific rules, James block is all the more impressive. Did he really "choose" to block because he "knew" that the ball had not touched the glass as he was otherwise flying through the air? I have come to believe that James really can make those adjustments. In this bloc, he lifted his right hand to keep it from hitting the edge of the backboard frame which could have led to an injury.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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Joe, it might seem a little strange that a California boy could wax the charms of Ohio, but "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 20, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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ms55401
Your 2 examples are right on. I've wondered why they are never called.
Goaltending does get called.
Hardly a moral issue. Just some cheap and pretty harmless entertainment, like the games themselves.
Roger:
I'll get back to ya. Since it's fun and cheap maybe I'll edit down a slomo of the "pin and roll ".
Which demos the simultaneity the rule calls out for.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:11pm PT
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From goaltending-basket-interference/
Since the 2012-13 season, referees have reviewed situations in which they are not reasonably certain whether a goaltending or basket interference violation was called correctly during the last two minutes of the fourth period and overtime.
Possible goaltending violations that were not called are not reviewable.
Goaltending is confirmed when a player (offense or defense) touches the ball on a shot:
After it reaches its apex (its highest point) and is on a downward flight toward the basket with a reasonable chance to go in;
After it hits the backboard and is headed toward the basket, whether going up or down, with a reasonable chance to go in;
When it is in contact with the backboard, i.e., a player may not “trap” the ball (a batted ball against the backboard is not a trapped ball);
Once it has touched the rim and is either using the rim as its base or has bounced off the rim and is in the imaginary cylinder above the rim. (Note, a ball that is rolling off the rim may be touched, even if it is still in contact with the rim because it has no chance to go in); and
Generally, touch or vibrate the rim, backboard or net in a way that affects a shot attempt
When conducting the review, referees also look to determine whether:
The shooter committed a boundary line violation prior to the goaltending or basket interference violation,
An 8-second backcourt violation occurred before the goaltending or basket interference violation, or
Any unsportsmanlike acts or unnecessary contact occurred.
Given this, the rule is that the ball has to be moving up and headed for the basket, unless it has touched the backboard, otherwise it is goaltending. So the call was that the ball was going up and had not touched the glass when James smacked it.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 20, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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[quote]Quote Here[/quote So the call was that the ball was going up and had not touched the glass when James smacked it.
the question remains; did LeBenefactor touch the hoop/ring/basket/rim/,,,, or the ball first?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 20, 2016 - 10:00pm PT
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In this block he lifted his hand to keep to from hitting the edge of the backboard frame which could have led to an injury.
so are you looking at the left hand or the righthand? The lefthand yeah, it's trying not to get hurt! But you maybe amiss if your concern is for the righthand. i see LeBoard giving the backboard a quick slap after realizing he just smacked that ball into outter space, as celebration! Much how he like's to give the backboard an open palm slap after releasing on a flyby lay-up, preempting a "COUNT IT" before you even hear the swoooosh.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 21, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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Today the New York Times summarized Game 7 with the following picture and text:
This series of pictures taken from a video show the sequence of James contact with the ball, the roll of the ball to the right, and James lifting his hand away from the edge of the backboard. This adjustment still strikes me as an incredibly fast reaction time. The picture above corresponds approximately to the first of these pictures.
James is holding the rim with his left hand just as he touches the ball and then lets go. The rule says:
Section I-A Player Shall Not:
a. Touch the ball or the basket ring when the ball is using the basket ring as its lower base.
b. Touch the ball when it is above the basket ring and within the imaginary cylinder.
Clearly the ball is not near or above the rim, so James left hand touching the rim is not a violation.
The New York Times pictures also show how long Iguodala's arms and makes it easier to see where his hands was as James smashes the ball into the glass.
Based on the press coverage this block is going into James' life-time highlights reel. As I mentioned upthread, I watched this on TV and could not see the actual block until I watched it in slow motion.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 07:51am PT
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The NYT photo shows quite clearly leB's right hand, the ball and backboard all in contact simultaneously.
The ball was not "battted", because the next frames show LeB's right hand again rolling it across the backboard until he releases it and then slaps the glass. A battted ball would have traveled in the opposite direction from the object it was batted against.
Probably want to take note of the direction Ig's hand is oriented in and the distance from the ball.
So maybe the mighty Casey did strike out afterall.
Now it could be that since the little rectangles become infinitely small the ball never even actually touches the glass (at least in our lifetimes). It's all an illusion.
As to why Kerr or any of the team didn't register a complaint. The NYT best answers that. They were stunned.
It was a phenomenal athletic feat on LeB's pat to get to the backboard and there was no break in the action. Game on. "For a moment ... what they had just seen".
What is the San Diego take on Cleveland's accomplishment?
This is not to diminish the awesomeness that would be experiencing a championship here. I’m hoping against hope I get to see one in my lifetime. But let’s pump the brakes on saying San Diego has overtaken Cleveland as the most impotent pro sports town in America.
That label goes to Buffalo.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 09:06am PT
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Can I get an Amen for the backboard cam?
Doesn't a have soundtrack that I'd put on the What Song Are You Listening ... thread, but it does show the [patenteed?] leB "pin and roll" move about :19.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 09:16am PT
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And what of Cuz Jim?
Jim Brown says LeBron James deserves his own statue in Cleveland
"[He's] a young man who has taken responsibility on every level - community, family, team, organization, city - and he's done it with grace. He's carried himself well. He has bitten the bullet many times, and it's paid off for him. His legacy is set, and I'm so happy for him."
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jim-brown-lebron-james-deserves-his-own-statue-in-cleveland/
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 10:07am PT
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^Pretty good company to find yourself, no? Get that man a statue stat.
Courtesy of the University of Cincinnati.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Jun 21, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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Hey, is the Big O palming that ball?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 21, 2016 - 12:47pm PT
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z, last comment on the ball, glass, hand deal.
I searched for the picture that showed the ball position relative to the glass when James hit it, but found nothing. However, it occurs to me that the shot itself indicates that the ball was not on the glass. If Iguodala was shooting directly into the rim, then the ball was not on the glass. Based on the location of the ball on the glass after James hit it indicates that if the ball was on the glass it would not have been likely to have gone into the basket--it is too far to the right. Iguodala is too good a player to miss that shot by so much, but if he did, the rule says goaltending requires that the shot was otherwise good.
Interesting topic. More respect for the refs who are otherwise blind to the opponent's transgressions and just mean and evil to my team.
So here is my "aha" moment at the end of Game 7.
I am sitting on the edge of my seat.
The Cavs are up by 4 and there are 10 seconds left.
We are going to lose: we need a miracle.
Holy sh#t, I am a Cleveland sports fan.
With Props to Jim Brown, I do not want another statue of a sports star.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jun 21, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
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Wuz we robbed?
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 21, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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YES Jaybro, you and we wuz all robbed and everyone lost except the owners. May I suggest that this old white male overreaching horrific "Winner take all" strategy needs to cease stat and all sporting games in the entire United States will go with the "Everybody gets a gold star" technique. With this, there are truly no losers, everyone is always a winner. Everyone should get a trophy in this version, including the long suffering fans. Until that blessed event occurs and society catches up with our needs, we all need to just quietly curl up in our own personal "safe space rooms", which are basically a special room to recuperate from this horrific theft of the game. The room should equipped with cookies, coloring books, bubbles, Play-Doh, calming music, pillows, blankets and a video of frolicking puppies, as well as students and staff members trained to deal with trauma. At all cost avoid allowing any rabid basketball fans into the room, even if they so love the warriors as we all do.
And may the odds be forever in your favor......
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