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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:16pm PT
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1. science somehow persisted, and even thrived, in the presence of religious works like the Quran and the Bible which were central religious authorities...
Yes. Correct.
2. it is overly simplistic to assign a modern view of Islamic history (as interpreted by HFCS for instance) as "Truth" throughout the history of Islamic civilization.
This needs clarification before a response can be given.
3. History is much more complex then some of these cartoonish characterizations.
What "cartoonish characterizations"? Needs more clarification?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:20pm PT
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Revisited:
"Don't forget that Islam help preserve science and mathematics during the Dark Ages."
How about this one?
Don't forget that Christianity facilitated science and mathematics during the Enlightenment.
Equally fair? Equally loose? Equally...?
.....
I am still of the opinion that atheism is a religion. -Mark
Unf, I do not share this view any more than the view that nonstamp collecting is a hobby.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 15, 2016 - 07:23pm PT
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From May 7 to 13 I was on a road trip and am now catching up with Supertopo.
I see that on May 10 Lovegasoline quoted from the Aldous Huxley essay, "Ravens and Writing Desks."
Around the same time, Robert Nugent and I were in the van listening to an audio book and heard Joe Mantegna as the voice of Spenser in Robert B. Parker's Wonderland say, "Sometimes a raven is just like a writing desk."
Is there a question here?
An answer?
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John M
climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
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don't forget.. scientists created mustard gas.. and all sorts of other goodies whose only purpose is to kill people.
Its seems disingenuous to me to just point out the wrongs religion has brought on the world.
hatred, fear, pride, arrogance, lust.. these are the problems. And these are human issues found in both the religious and in scientists. Need I invoke godwins law and what scientist did under that regime?
Its not religion or science. There should be no "either or".. nor "versus"..
but carry on..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
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Science, in addition to the other things, is the gathering of knowledge. So yes this would include, along the way, learning how to make mustard gas.
So what would be the salient point here? Is it (a) science in the wrong hands can be dangerous; (b) we need to put the brakes on science; (c) ignorance esp of deeper understanding for which we haven't evolved is the way to go; (d) science needs to just stay away from religion (esp C if you're a Christian; or I if you're a Muslim) and its truth-claims to how the world works.
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John M
climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
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salient point already made..
Its not religion or science. There should be no "either or".. nor "versus"..
both can be ill used because both are enacted by humans with weaknesses.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:47pm PT
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Well, perhaps down the line at some point then, when "religions" and their adherents are even more "moderated" by modernity's corrective pressures. We can hope.
And religions and their adherents more fully understand their holy books were written by men, were inventions of men.
I won't hold my breath though. It's going to be awhile on the streets of Bangladesh.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 15, 2016 - 07:50pm PT
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HFCS, We could go on and on to no purpose on a lot of this.
I do want to clarify on point - the Muslims that I have known and know are not fundamentalists - their religion was an aspect of their culture, philosophy, and spititual practice. And, their jihad was to purify their heart and practice charity.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 15, 2016 - 09:10pm PT
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my undergraduate courses and classroom and dormitory days in electrical engineering bristled with Muslims from Iran (1978-79) nice enough and rich enough and liberal enough (!) to come to learn in America and yet who were also fundamentalist, believing in a 6,000 year old earth, rejecting whole swathes of science, believing in creation, believing their holy book was written by God (HFCS)
You are so full of it, Chumly. I taught Arabs and Iranians frequently, and my best friend at Murray State in the mid 1960s was Persian. Not a single one of those students I spoke with could have been described in that fashion. You are at heart quite a bigot, and cowardly in your steadfastness to keep your identity unknown. Once and for all: Tell us who you are; since you are so proud of your "work" let us see for ourselves what contributions you have made.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 09:15pm PT
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"You are so full of it, Chumly." -jgill
You are at heart quite a bigot... -jgill
What in the heck is in that post you quoted to get you to react so?
Maybe get a good night sleep?
Every bit is the truth. I don't lie. Despite my anonymity.
If you cannot accept that then we have nothing to say.
btw, you call me names, including valley girl, etc,
I've called you nothing, ever.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
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Let's just repeat it for the record. What I wrote...
"my undergraduate courses and classroom and dormitory days in electrical engineering bristled with Muslims from Iran (1978-79) nice enough and rich enough and liberal enough (!) to come to learn in America and yet who were also fundamentalist, believing in a 6,000 year old earth, rejecting whole swathes of science, believing in creation, believing their holy book was written by God (HFCS)"
Are you really so naive to believe that Iranians attending my school in 1978 (the year of the hostage crisis) could not be fundamentalist?
We are a country of fundamentalists. Iran is a country even today of fundamentalists in majority.
What else in the post would I be full of sh#t about? Let's see... Would it be one of the specific points of fundamentalism I listed? I don't think you really need to be informed as to what fundamentalism is.
Anyways I think it is YOUR post which is so revealing - based on so little - pointing to how little we have in common in regard to interests and experiences.
"Bigot?" Hardly. Good day, sir.
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WBraun
climber
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May 15, 2016 - 09:27pm PT
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John Gill's post to you went right over the top of yer ridged static mechanically bolted on head.
You completely missed it as usual because you're a dumb static mechanical machine ....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
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"You completely missed it as usual because you're a dumb static mechanical machine ...." -wb
Yeah, I knew you'd pipe in.
....
PS. As I've mentioned on this site probably at least twice before, it was these very Iranian students in 1979-80 we would philosophize with into the wee hours of the night. On many many occasions. So I got to know intimately well their thinking and beliefs concerning their homeland, culture, the Shah and their religion.
So you're simply dead wrong.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2464656&msg=2464847#msg2464847
"In college, I had an Iranian girlfriend (yes not Arab) for more than a year often visiting her fundamentalist family regularly; thus had the opportunity to become quite familiar with their fundamentalist beliefs; in undergrad school, many Iranians (in particular young men) were in my major and dorm and we often consumed many hours late in the night philosophizing about the Abrahamic religions and their underlying theologies and what we all really really believed." -hfcs; aug 2014
But why take my word for it. Check the Pew research aforeposted. For citing the info, would they be bigots too?
PS
I wonder if my "IRANIAN girlfriend" (Jennifer M) who was ex-muslim thought I was a bigot. hmmm....
such an easy word to throw around, eh?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 16, 2016 - 07:21am PT
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Based on some of the recent conversation, I highly recommend the book In Search Of Zarathustra. Read a few years back and found it fascinating and beautifully written.
From a review at Powells Books -
"In Persia more than three thousand years ago, Zarathustra spoke of a single universal god, the battle between good and evil, the devil, heaven and hell, and an eventual end to the world—foreshadowing the core beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Moving from present to past, Paul Kriwaczek examines the effects of the prophet’s teachings on the spiri-tual and daily lives of diverse peoples. Beginning in the year 2000 with New Year’s festivities in Iran, he walks us back through Nietzsche’s nineteenth-century interpretation of Zarathustra to the Cathars of thirteenth-century France and the ninth-century Bulgars; from ancient Rome to the time of Alexander the Great’s destruction of the Persian Empire; and, finally, to the time of Zarathustra himself."
http://www.powells.com/book/in-search-of-zarathustra-9780375415289#sthash.rYHMKEV2.dpuf
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 16, 2016 - 09:27am PT
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linked from the Pew survey:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/
"Muslims around the world express broad support for democracy and for people of other faiths being able to practice their religion freely. At the same time, many Muslims say religious leaders should influence political matters and see Islamic political parties as just as good or better than other political parties."
"Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies.
In most countries where the question was asked, roughly three-quarters or more Muslims reject suicide bombing and other forms of violence against civilians. And in most countries, the prevailing view is that such acts are never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies..."
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-science-and-popular-culture/
"Most Muslims do not believe there is an inherent tension between religion and science. In just two of the 23 countries where the question was asked do more than half of Muslims say there is a conflict between faith and science. In fact, at least half of Muslims in 17 countries say no conflict exists."
"Many Muslims around the world believe in evolution. In 13 of the 22 countries where the question was asked, at least half say humans and other living things have evolved over time. By contrast, in just four countries do at least half say that humans have remained in their present form since the beginning of time."
all that being said, it would be erroneous to assign the opinion trends that emerge from a world wide poll to all individuals identified as "muslim," certainly as much an error as assigning the the results of a world wide poll of christians to all of us... very tellingly, such a poll seems to be absent from the Pew website, apparently this isn't an issue?
so while there can be a claim of christian opinion, there is no supporting information defining that opinion.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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May 16, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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Ed:
I’m not too sure how to read that report.
On the one hand, it seems favorable to those who are Muslim about the things that concern others (e.g., us) today.
On the other hand, there seems to be a number of ambiguous terms that could be worrisome. In the Pew report, words like “broadly,” “many,” “three quarters or more,” “majorities,” “most,” “prevailing,” “more than half,” and “half” all cry out for a contextualization.
There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, according to Google. (The U.S. population has about 317 million people, for comparison.) A simple majority or even 3/4s could still leave a rather large group of people who would not appear to be so favorably inclined to others in the world.
I'd say the report is not very incisive, maybe a bit politically correct.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2016 - 11:10am PT
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So what is the message here? We should be grateful only minority percentages support stoning to death for adultery, stoning to death for blasphemy, stoning to death for apostasy?
Let's go with merely 20%. 20% of 1.6 billion is what? My math gives me 320 million. Oh that's great: Only 320M want to stone a woman to death for dishonoring the family. Progress!
Honestly, I am sick and tired of people being so ignorant about Abrahamic religion. Plus I'm sick and tired of people not bothering to distinguish between criticism of Islam (Islamic dogma, Islamic doctrines) and insulting Muslims. The difference is plain to anyone who knows the subjects.
How many Americans even knew what "apostasy" meant before Islamic "apostates" started getting slaughtered and their killing posted on social media.
Where is the soul searching in America, particularly among America's educated on these issues? It is an embarrassment.
We'll leave you with this tidbit...
Death Penalty for Leaving Islam (Apostasy)...
It is not Islamophobia or "bigotry" or "racism" to push back against this bullshit with the attitude we could do a whole lot better.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/
Note 86 percent in Egypt. Wonderful.
NOte 76 percent in Pakistan. Brilliant.
:>(
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 16, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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This might sound familiar...
"In politics and in life [and in forum posting] ignorance is not a virtue. It is not cool to not know what you're talking about."
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