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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 12:02pm PT
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Roger
I've got nothing to do with lambones statement. I just thought that was an interesting thought he brought up and wanted to see how people felt about that kind of thought process.
Some of my personal feelings about this thread topic would be way too far out there for most to digest, so I'll pass.
Edit:
Also Roger, get Yvon to post up here on this forum about this topic. It could become very interesting ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2006 - 12:12pm PT
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In response to Lambone's implicit question: who is Chouinard, well read the link I provided to get an idea. Maybe he is a misguided, successful business man who is justifying why he sold out. But he is probably one of the voices which bridge from the "Golden Era" of Yosemite climbing to the post-Golden-Era (Roger, help me here buddy, weren't you going to come up with a name for this era?). His development of tools in that generation, coupled with the next generation Jardine, have made climbing what it is today.
Lambone also felt that I impuned his generation, but I didn't, in fact, it is contemporary culture which eschews all risk, this is not generational, many of the old dads are reluctant to endorse "risky" climbing behavior, the question, as always, is when is the high possibilty of loss-of-life justifiable in the pursuit of "just a sport?" This is the question my dad asked me throughout my climbing life.
I have no answer for that question.
I am not against people choosing to use protection to minimize risk, and Chouinard's view is very subtle, he said above that the tools should "support" "qualitites like creativity, boldness and technique."
In my mind, "boldness" is about confronting danger fearlessly. What is dangerous about climbing? The possibility of falling. One way of minimizing the risk of falling is not going to places where you could fall. Another is to protect those places in such a way as to minimize the risk of falling, e.g. via feratta, climbing equipment, etc.
A very old school climbing thought is that the only "fair means" acceptable in climbing is the use of the clothing on your back. All "pure" ascents are free solos.
But this is only a part of the picture. I was prepared for this thought by two seemingly unrelated threads: kuan's on breaking her foot and David's on rattlesnake sightings at Lover's Leap. kuan rightfully wants to know if something could have been done to prevent the accident. We find many reports in ANAM which conclude that the victims did not do anything wrong, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That is a statement about risk. It is inherent in the places we journey. Sometimes the only way to have avoided it is to have not been there at all.
David does something which is ancient primate behavior, warns us about the presence of a danger. However dangerous the rattlesnake is, it's actual record of injury on humans is blown grossly out of proportion. I would propose that these snakes have very little record of killing anyone. A search of records in Massachussetts from the pilgrams on to the today failed to find one instance of death by rattlesnake venom. Yet few would knowingly accept the risk of rattlesnakes comingling with humans. The fact that the snakes do comingle, unwittingly to the humans, would suggest that they aren't such a threat that we make them out to be.
Our lack of understanding of the snake leads us to miscalculate the risk posed by the snake's presence. The tool which enables understanding is knowledge, in this case, which leads to behavior which is apparently bold. I say apparently because the perceived danger may not be as real as an ignorant person thinks.
So it is with climbing. Watching someone like John Bachar soloing may engender the feeling that he is bold. The danger, however, is relative. It may be dangerous for me to attempt the same free solos as Bachar, but I believe it is not necessarily dangerous for him, at least not in the same way. A child walking down the street at 4 years old is in considerable risk, a child at 14 years probably is not. I cannot solo much above 5.6 without great self fear. I lead some 5.10 but am limited by my lack of boldness. This is of course my "trad" limits... when I sport climb on well bolted routes I can push my lead limits up quite considerably. I am willing to push crack climbs harder than slab climbs, once again, the modern protection available to me allows this to happen by minimizing the risk.
What Chouinard is reminding me is that climbing, at least the climbing he is talking about, is more than the numbers, more than the shere atheletic difficulty of the climb. When that becomes the driving force of the sport of climbing, then climbing has become something different than what Chouinard was doing "back in the day."
Lambone I'm not talking 'bout your generation, nor my generation, I'm actually just talking about what goes on inside our heads. That is where climbing exists... and I like to discuss the introspective nature of climbing with others because it helps me understand and accept, and relearn, why I climb.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Oct 10, 2006 - 12:21pm PT
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I don't go in for this "good ole days" bs. I believe in evolution and I hope to do my little part. Also, to jump to the absolutist "then solo naked why dontcha" misses the rich experience potential of consciously reducing the reliance on technology.
Back in the early 90's before the Nose had been freed or turned into a race track, we climbed it in a long hard day without jumars or aiders. The experience was (really difficult) and amazing. We never had a disconnect from the direct experience of climbing movement. Having to follow each pitch, having to be more flexible to step in standard runners on the aid sections and the balance required to aid climb this way, carrying the same amount of gear as we would on the nutcracker - all served to keep the sensitivity to terrain and texture much higher than I had experienced on El Cap before or since. Skiing big backcountry slopes with absurdly light gear and walking from the top of Cathedral Peak straight back (off trail) to the rescue site on a moonless night without a headlamp were similar experiences for me that I will always remember and cherish.
These kind of adventures don't really apply to the competitive or "do one better" arena but can be done by at any level and by anyone seeking to experience the planet more directly.
Peter
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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Ed said above "risky" climbing behavior, the question, as always, is when is the high possibility of loss-of-life justifiable in the pursuit of "just a sport?"
It isn't a "sport"
It's really a veiled attempt to find out who we really are and why/what are we doing here.
Remember, Reinhold Messners account on the top of some mountain in the Himalaya's, and he finally accounted that he was at peace. he felt at that moment he didn't need top go on anymore, up or down. He just sat there complete and satisfied. But it was a fleeting experience as he eventually reentered the material world of duality because he had not climbed the true summit.
For the best pearls, one must dive deep, deeper than ever. Swimming on the surface will get us nowhere ......
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:00pm PT
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Adventure is the same if we are all climbing at our "risk limits" regardless of the difficulty or the gear.
However, in our modern society we are not truthful to ourselves and only believe we our at our risk limits.
We are capable of overcoming much more than we ever thought possible form the safety of our couch.
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DHike
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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Werner wrote; "Some of my personal feelings about this thread topic would be way too far out there for most to digest, so I'll pass."
Damn Werner, you're a tease. Please reconsider, I'm struggling to maintain interest,,,,
IMHO, if man were really meant to climb steep rock, wouldn't we have been born with suction cups on our hands and feet? Was Warren stepping over the line in exploiting technology so many years ago? Man is, has always been and will always be, reliant on tools. Was having an opposable thumb primarily for creating great jambs?
There are some who still find adventure and risk even though technology has made it 'safer'. There are those still finding some of the most obscure things to 'put up' in the spirit of some of the best first ascensionists.
And yes, though technology has made things 'easier', 'safer', people are much the same and things can still go wrong.
Evolution is a natural thing, whether it applies to genetics, advances in synthetic clothing fibers or micro-cams. For man not to evolve or invent and improve new technologies, is for man to be dead. Or at least lamenting the passing of the torch on ST.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:01pm PT
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Is the couch really safe, Mick?
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murcy
climber
san francisco
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:04pm PT
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His take in the end is that "We should start doing away with these tools and replace them with greater skill and courage. I felt that the whole idea of climbing should move away from goal-oriented technology to a place in which personal qualities like creativity, boldness, and technique were supported rather than suppressed by the tools of the trade."
"we should start . . ."
"the whole idea of climbing should move away . . ." . . .
different strokes for different folks.
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:09pm PT
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No the couch is definitely not safe.
We mistakenly believe the comfort a couch provides is absolute protection from the risks of the outside world. I suspect more people die from the couch than from the rock.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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Now I will enterian this:
The couch is "safe" if and only if one is in the correct consciousness.
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Oct 10, 2006 - 01:17pm PT
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Don't you mean unconsciousness?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Oct 10, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Ed wrote, "He finds that he "lost the desire to make ever-more complex tools merely to make climbing safer and easier. I also had increasing difficulty relating to the new indoor sport climbers, who saw climbing as a strictly gymnastic endeavor in which mountains or crags were necessary and sticking one’s neck out was unacceptable. I began loathing the very equipment I was making, preferring to go out and do easier climbs without gear rather than harder ones with all the gear."
If I recall correctly, Yvon got out of the business in what the late 80's? Certainly before gyms became real popular.
An in relation to Yvon's "Let my People Surf", he has the power. He just needs to divide up his $ to all his employees then they can surf for a while.
As far as adventure, the new generation can find adventure of their chosing and do. Is it at the top end? Maybe not. How many climbers are out there adventuring at the very top end all the time? Not very damn many, certainly not enough to justify any climbing or clothing manufacturers existence. It is us normal folks who seek out our own adventures that put money into climbing manufaturers pockets. Adventure is a relative thing to everyone. We each have our own degree and our own set of values that may constitute that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 10, 2006 - 02:48pm PT
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people die on couches, more than on rock? I bet.
I really like the pearl diving analogy werner, and I think "it's not just a sport." Is what Ed was getting at.
In my own case I've trained myself to keep going sans any semblence of technique, so it's always adventurous, doesn't matter what new toys I have.
Mark Smedley once told me he won't climb the Weissner on deto, until he gets a pair of rope soled shoes.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 10, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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Dear Rodger Breedlove and Ed,
What I meant by the stament in my first post was that hi-tech clothing is GEAR just as much as a fancy ice tool or trick piece of protection.
If a nicely refined Patagonia parka doesn't reduce the element of risk in a climb, then I guess I don't know what does...
We face the decision to reduce or add more risk everytime we pack our rucksack and decide whether to stuff in the Gor-Tex or the extra belay parka for that unexpected bivi.
The soft good industry ((ie) Patagonia owned by Yvon) is the prime example of refining technology year after year to reduce risk and make climbing easier, imho (think weight and warmth and water proffness). Just as much if not moreso then 5/8" stainless steel expansion bolts. And therefore I don't have much sympathy for Yvons complaint (or whatever it is) in the original post.
Don't get me wrong, Yvon Chouinard And his crew are my heros, i don't mean any real disrespect.
I don't think there is much overlap in clothing making ice climbing easier and Yvon's ice climbing tools making ice climbing easier.
I assume you guys in your years of tying into a rope have tried winter climbing at some point. Therefore you should be able to appreciate that I feel a nice warm waterproof coat and gloves are as important, if not more important to the success of a big ice climb then what type of tool you are swinging.
I was being a little harsh on you old guys I admit, my tone was in jest. I got nothing but mad respect for the old school. But I wish the old school would stop trying to make a point of how weak the new school is. Because at the top end of the game, new schoolers are tearing it up with as much if not more adventure then ever was in the past. Open an Alpinist mag once in a while for proof.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
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"In anything at all, perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
This is certainly the case with literature, and probably in life as well. But to carry this out, to pull it off, you need to know what you're doing and boil it all down to bare bones, and state it clearly and simply with minimal relish for flavah.
Thanks for the reminder, Ed.
As for the Stonemasters being remembered, recall this simple verse:
The crowd on earth
They soon forget
The heros of the past.
The cheer like mad
Until you fall
And that's how long you last.
Along these lines I was reading a piece in Poetry recently where many current poets were worried about their work not outliving them. The author pointed out that for the vast majority of everyone who ever wrote a thing, the man and his work will go to the dirt together. That's the way it goes--and is supposed to go. We all climb for ourselves and our friends, and that's enough.
JL
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:34pm PT
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Goog thoughts, all, young AND old. I like Woody's response. My take is that the advent of more/better gear gives us more opportunity to exercise choice. I once chose to climb a new three-pitch grade 3-4 waterfall with students, allowing only one classic 7ocm Chouinard piolet per person. I set up belays with bollards in opposition, and carved a few bollards for slings as running belays. We all had an enlightenning adventure.
On the other hand, when the gear gets too good for the existing levels of difficulty, it's always possible to find more challenging climbs. For example, moving onto the roofs and hanging daggers of modern mixed climbing. All the gear and all the types/styles of climbing that exist today allow us to customize adventures to fit our personal quests/needs/fantasies/visions.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:38pm PT
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"Adventure is about risk. Risk is the result of failing to be able to determine the outcome of an action completely. The contemporary feeling regarding risk is that it should be eliminated entirely."
I don't think you're correct, Ed. You and I probably have very similar outlooks on adventure - runouts, first ascents, trad climbing on granite, etc.
But go look at the "other extreme" of rock climbing - sport climbing and bouldering - and you'll see climbers doing sketchy runouts to the first bolt (the 5.9 on the left side of China Wall at Owens comes to mind), sketchy highball bouldering (we were just at the Happy boulders last Friday, watched some folks working a tall easy problem, sketching out and downclimbing to jump off, then battling through their fear and topping it out), etc.
And, honestly, when you go sport climbing after a season of low-angle trad climbing, aren't you scared clipping some of the bolts when your forearms are flamed out, even though the last bolt is only a few feet below you?
I think it's pretty limiting to try to define what other people find adventurous.
A lot of trad climbers come off as elitist, but if we keep that up, sooner or later the gym and sport trained generations will outnumber trad climbers so greatly that retrobolting will become commonplace, as it has in much of Europe.
On the original topic - Chouinard's quotes don't ring true to me - sounds like someone revising their past opinion from their current outlook.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Oct 10, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
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Hey Lambone, I absolutely agree with your complaint about older climbers telling younger climbers that they are soft. The only relevant comparison is best against best and average against average. Older climbers may have had their glory in the sun, and may have had cool lines to work on with no crowds, but none of them came close to touching what young climbers do today.
My private thoughts are to estimate which of any of the older generation would be pushing with the best on the current standards. I assume that some would but it is not a forgone conclusion.
In the early 1970s we were close on the heels of the 60s guys some of whom were still around. Their best routes and styles were still hard to live up to. However, by the middle 1970s, the newer climbs were breaking new ground on all fronts. On the other hand, the climbs (and climbers) from the 1930s were respected for their own charms, but we ran up the climbs. The same is true today. And as far as I can remember, no older climber ever told us that we were soft. The same should be true today.
Best, Roger
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 10, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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" My buddy Angus cut the cover off his Jardine light back packing book, haha. He really did."
-Too funny! Ha...* edited for length.
"Too far out there.." May be, Werner, but there are those of us interested in hearing, even if we may not always agree, any time you feel like divulging.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Oct 10, 2006 - 05:32pm PT
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Chouinard is entitled to his point of view, but I don't buy it. It seems to me that if better equipment makes some climbs easier and/or safer, climbers at the cutting edge simply push on to things harder and neckier than the previous generation ever considered. This does mean we old folks have to look on in dismay as our prized test-pieces become mere warm-ups for a younger generation, but this is the nature of human progress in all areas. For example, the prominent 20th century mathematician Jean Dieudonne wrote, with just a touch of sexism,
"It is the awareness of this permanent, historic process which should bring professional mathematicians to a more modest conception of their role and their efforts, enabling them to foresee that their most painstaking discoveries, and the ones which the tend to take most pride in, could quite easily become simple playthings for future generations of schoolboys."
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reminiscing about how tough we all were back in the day as much as the next geezer. I'm pretty sure the toughness is strategically inflated as the years pass by, but that is one of the privileges of old age. And though I agree that risk is still a defining ingredient in trad climbing, I for one am grateful for all the new gear that makes things a little easier and a little safer. It gives me the opportunity, in my dotage, to continue to enjoy climbing in spite of a significantly reduced tolerance for killing or maiming myself. So I say to the technocrats, keep it coming. The younger generation can find new horizons, mine don't have to dim quite so much, and it seems to me like we all win.
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