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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 06:10pm PT
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Alright, alright, you're right, I can't get that much time off. Oh for the days of youth when one could dream. But mark my words, some day the pendulum will swing, quick and fast will be out and the rage will return for Grade VI meaning "3 or more days", not "3 or more hours." And when that happens some young gun will bag the mother of all girdles in 97 days and from my rest home palmtop I'll search the SuperTopo archives and throw your rejection back in your face.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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hmm. kinda reluctant to chime in here. but here goes
I don't want to skirt my presence or attitude as a member of the oft referred to Valley climbing community of 1982. Hindsight examination of the minuitae of 'what you tapped where' is one thing, the big picture is more relevant. On a side note, ZM and Aurora were classic lines that had been tried by others but not touched in 5 and 1 years respectively, and so were somewhat public domain and subject to community scrutiny, (our buds helped carry loads to the base.)
1982, I was hanging at Fish's van and with other friends in the C4 lot when I could what with the guide job, pregnant girlfriend etc. I sprayed with authority about your climb back then. By the standards of the day the clear critique was that the line was forced up the grand slab, that 39 days was rediculous, and that the lack of local track record or even just hanging out and getting to know the residents was a problem that probably led to the error in judgement in the first place. I did not approve of the bad treatment you received at the time, the rowdy, sometimes out of control fringe were my friends, but as stated I was on a different path.
I have been consistant with critiquing "over the top" ascents on El Cap, from the spanish epic, to my friends Kurt and Scott trying to free the Muir. Their circus like, high profile presence on the wall made an nps response inevitable, though their effort was futuristic it defied the environmental (in true sense) ethic of the time. Likewise today leaving fixed lines all the way up walls is "over the top" and must be condemed.
To defend our local socialbility back then, many visitors came, spent a little time, and kicked ass in the Valley, becoming seasonal locals themselves. This tradition started before Kor, and in our day we had many friends who were doing new routes coming in from Canada, Colorado, etc. Maybe our scene was too hedonistic for you back then, and so, indirectly, you have suffered as a persecuted Christian?
On the plus you were visionaries who were seeing what, in hindsight, was a futuristic line, and were misunderstood. On the minus, you did not have an aid climbing aesthetic that was appreciated by the local cognesceti at the time. This was not from how the moves were made, or how hard it may have been, or your likeability.. It really boiled down to comparison with the Aquarian, Dihedral, Cosmos, Lurking, etc. ie. WOS was not deemed classic by the standards of the day, flawed, parochial, or rightous they may have been.
I am sorry for you that you suffered, I am embarrassed as a Yos community member that someone went nuts and defiled your stuff. I hope this forum has been cathartic for you. Do you still climb? If so, stop typing and go climbing!
Peter
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MSmith
Big Wall climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:22pm PT
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"Do you still climb? If so, stop typing and go climbing!"
Yes, and good advice. I still have a climber's heart, at least. Family realities have shaped my climbing, but even more so is flexor and extensor tendonosis which isn't something I can do much about. My wife keeps telling me that climbing is a mindset, not an ability level. She's right, of course.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 11, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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Thank you, Peter, for your perpective on matters. I think this forum has been very good for us in many ways. I also think that the discussion has been good for others. We have all learned things from each other, but, most importantly, have (at least it appears in most cases) come to a mutual understanding and respect.
Now that things have "simmered down" a bit, I'm looking forward to "lurking" more, posting less, and getting back to a more normal life again. This dialog has been insanely time consuming. But I am very grateful to those who have engaged in it. In this case I think there has been light along with the heat.
Thanks again, Peter.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 12, 2006 - 01:10am PT
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"We saw you guys up there. We were watching the circus on the Excalibur"
 Mike Mathers, upon greeting PTPP and Tom after their 13-day camping trip
Circus. Of course. Two clowns putting on a show for the tourists in the Green Dragon
What's wrong with that?
If one group prefers a one day marathon, and another a leisurely two-week drift, why call one better than the other? Yosemite is a national park - owned by all of us - with all sorts of recreational possibilities.
Are you going to sit on a rock near Happy Isles, and talk smack to hikers with trekking poles? Or tell a guy with a fishing pole at the El Cap bridge he's completely out of his mind?
I think that Mark and Richard did a ballsy FA, and if the locals were peeved that the blank slab was being done before they figured out how to do it, screw them.
The fact is, they climbed a line that had been looked at for years, and which nobody else knew how to climb.
The route speaks for itself: nobody else has been able to climb it.
If "too many bolts" is still the argument against Wings of Steel, go climb it, and report it as having too many bolts.
But, don't sit at the base and say it should have been done differently.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Aug 12, 2006 - 08:40am PT
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It seems everyone has decided which point in the controversy to latch on to and to focus on.
Without assigning a name to each viewpoint, they are:
Hook enhancements
Sick hooking
Zmacs/ artficial difficulty
39 days
Fecaphelia (and I am glad I don't know how to spell that...)
Going up the Slab in the first place
Unfair treatment/ slander & lies
impact vs usage
Their right to breathe the same air as "us"
I would submit that these are all elements of a bigger picture, and no one can have a rational position without being concillatory on at least a few of the points.
After openning my mind to hear all sides without predjudice, I am left with an understanding of how and why this whole thing started, escalated, and persists.
As I see it, it stems from a fundamental difference in philosophy of action and impact. As such full "reconcilliation" is not possible or even a desired result.
The locals seem to have grasped the difference, but "they" still express " not getting it".
It's not really about style, OR ethics. It is about the intent of the action in the first place. The fundamental precept of Buddhism is that desire causes suffering, and only through acceptance of ones surroungs, can one achieve enlightenment.
Imposition of will is the flaw of pride that binds one to Samsara, the wheel of suffering and reincarnation.
The locals felt to go up on the stone was to accept what the stone is and to try to exist in that reality. Of course some compromises will need to be made on sight in terms of speed, sustainability, available technology, and reasonable safety.
The "newguys" felt the locals didn't own the stone, and they could do what ever they wanted, as they heard that's what the locals got to do.
Edit/delete- Because some people have small minds and prejudices.
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nvrws
climber
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Aug 14, 2006 - 06:03pm PT
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Mark,
I think if you worked at it you could stretch it to 11/2 years. You included rest days but forgot the sabath days. Conceivably that could be 2 non-climbing days per week. Plus, in order to meet the "ethics")yikes! You'd need to drill by hand. After a few weeks the tendonitis would set in and by the time you take enough ibuprofen, well then.. Wham. Bleeding ulcer, which would of course lead to the anemia, which would definitely sloooow youuuu downnnnnnn even more. I think we have an epic in the works.
tim
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blue eyed debil
Social climber
right here, right now
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Aug 15, 2006 - 10:17am PT
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Man, Brenda told me about this and I am soooo glad I stopped by to check out the hubbub. Richard, I aint seen you or talked with you in YEARS so, this was a real treat for me. Sorry to everyone else b/c this is not going to be about climbing stone (the only climbing I do is on my wife's ass every now and then). Richard, reading your posts reminds me of how much I always loved you and why. Articulate, intelligent and passionate to the brink of being dangerous (to yourself) and ABSOLUTELY one of the most genuine and honest souls I have ever met. Mark is up there, too. I remember the first time I met you (actually had to do with WOS!) and you were talking in a group of people and I looked at you and thought, wow! here is a man with the ability to put to words all these complex thoughts that I myself was having but was too ignorant to articulate. By the way, it may be the SOL has run, brother, on a lawsuit for slander or libel. Although, it sounds to me that what some j/o wrote in a book about you has definitely damaged your ability to get published.
Anyway, it would be great to get an email from you if you have enough time to write outside of this blog and your fingers are not too cramped. You can email me at troycifer@yahoo.com
peace
troy
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 15, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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How cool has this whole WoS saga been here on McTopo? Here is an old friend of Richard's -Troy - whom he might never have met otherwise, suddenly appearing out of the woodwork. While there has been plenty of "bad" for Mark and Richard here, you can sure see how the tide has turned mostly towards the "good". [Rom 8:28]
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Aug 15, 2006 - 01:43pm PT
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Hey, Troy. Good to hear from you! I'll be in touch, for sure.
Too funny: dangerous to myself. Hmmm my history does seem to bear that out. Dang it! That's not funny at all! ;-)
Thanks, Troy.
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Bart Fay
Social climber
Redlands, CA
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Aug 15, 2006 - 02:26pm PT
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Wow elcapfool, that's one f'd-up analogy.
Next try one with Hitler and Chanukah.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:17pm PT
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Thus begins the battle of Da_Dweeb, The Unlucky. For those people actually interested in this on-going mindnumbing plukefest, don't overlook these most recent WOS followup threads. And don't be too put off by the ensuing omnipresent BwanaBlather.
Lest we forget, thanks to the revisionists Mark and Richard, one of the main points they continue to skew is how many times they enhanced with a drill their 150 or so hook placements. And when finally pressed in the past, they defend their actions stating that they were equal and better than Bridwell and Mayfield on El Cap and it was perfectly okay to enhance their route like they did. I think the last admission was 8-10 times. People could hear them chipping and drilling from the ground. And the same was done again on the two other routes they did on El Cap.
The 39 days on a partial route and huge pile of trash were other issues. The list goes on including their bonehead attitude and overall incompetence. Find the book, it tells all about their 'record 39-day ascent...and powerful spiritual odyssey' and as has been said before, it makes fine toilet reading. In the Book of Dick, all things are revealed. Not to mention the WOS site itself.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=237614&msg=239248#msg239248
http://www.jensenconsultations.com/climbing/wos/wos.html
And this classic also addresses the debate:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=253293&msg=254239#msg254239
Many more questions remain unanswered than answers go unquestioned. In closing, I leave you with the secret handshake after they both rimmed out.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:45pm PT
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It's all speculation, until a team finishes the second ascent.
It's incredible, to me, that the line, trashed as being done by hammering, can't be repeated by others eager to prove their dementhesis.
I think the line is legitimate, and difficult.
And, the lack of a second ascent is, a fortiori, proof of its validity.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 10:49pm PT
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Tom, uhhh, no. Nearby observation from the ground was what got them into trouble and confirmed suspicion about their competence and level of preparation in the first place.
In case you think they were climbing what was there, i.e., not enhancing, consider the left column of small print from the back cover of The Book of Dick.
Ever have a route of any sort change dramatically in your overall estimation in the first 10 feet??
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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Ahhh, mimisoft spews again, having "learned" nothing (no surprise) in the ensuing years of discussion. Perhaps mimisoft can produce enough pop-up messages on it's master's screen to convince him to gear up, sack up, and actually get ten feet (or more) off the ground on the route. After all, from what the mimisoft program continues to assert (in typical slanderous fashion), the enhancements are obvious from the ground. Soooo, anybody with any doubts can simply hike to the base and see the truth.
I can't imagine what questions remain unanswered, except in the "mind" of this obviously badly written, erotic AI program. However, apparently trip reports by both PTPP and Ammon, reporting no visible enhancements, are unable to affect the infinite loops that ceaselessly produce the sole refrain of which this program is capable. Sigh... and people tell us to "get over it." It is to laugh.
[edit] Oh, btw, as I have said before, I did not write the back cover, nor did I have any control over what the staff writers put there. Anybody with any publishing experience knows that authors are at the mercy of the marketing people when it comes to such things. Hopefully this point can interrupt at least one of mimisoft's infinite loops. Anybody attempting to derive anything of substance from a back cover is at least ignorant. Steve, can you upgrade the program to correct some of its most ignorant failings? Doing so would at least make "dialog" with it more interesting. The loops are getting pretty boring. Thank you in advance.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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Well hello, BwanaDick. Somehow I knew you'd come calling. And to send a student to bump the wrong thread at that. So please explain in your own words how your whole enterprise changed in 10 feet of climbing as you stated in your own remarkably clear words?
You refuse to come clean on the drilling other than your hilarious 12-point font, 8-10 hook hole BwanaDimple description when pressed. Just for the sake of clarity, out of the 151 hooks, all but 5 of which were Leeper narrows, how many did not involve enhancement or drilling in any way with hammer, pick, chisel, or drill?
Bwana Edit: So, does that mean that the whole rest of the book is similarly dismissed by you? Pretty pathetic to write a book and not have the power to control what's in it. We know, it's not even you on the front cover either. Please answer the question on the extent of the enhancements. Still 8-10 for the entire variation?
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:47pm PT
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I'm beginning to sense Mimi wants some dick, but is conflicted.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:48pm PT
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Steve, you have GOT to fix this program! It's hilariously bad. Honestly, I can barely type for the laughter. ROFL!!!
"In my own words???" I thought I just explained that. FIX it, Steve. Please, FIX it. I simply can't waste any more time with it until you give it the ability to integrate already supplied information into its algorithms. THAT'S what AI is supposed to do. This isn't even "I" much less "AI!"
I guess for now all I can do is laugh and wait.
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Mimi
climber
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:52pm PT
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Ah, so the editor(s) realized your incompetence on their own. I find it hard to believe that you didn't supply your emperial approval for the text being a philosopher king and all.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Dec 28, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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Keep it coming. Each post is funnier than the previous one.
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