Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
|
|
Just Returned from Trip through Mammoth. We took Mammoth Taxi up to Agnew Meadows and again noticed how very narrow the road from Mineret Summit to Agnew Meadows is. It would be best searched by hiking and examining the downhill side closely. Lots of brush that could easily obscure things. I think if he hiked to Agnew he had to take this road. If he hiked to Reds Meadow he would have taken the trail.
We hiked up River Trail to Garnet Lake (north side) through Whitebark Pass and explored all approaches up to the East Banner/Ritter Notch from Nydiver.(went to the bottom of the east snowfield) We tried to look as closely as we could with binoculars all the fall lines that could be seen from Nydiver area. We also searched all around the 3 Nydiver lakes and all of the little area benches around Nydiver. Also searched approach to Nydiver from Shadow Lake trail. Also looked at 2 unnamed approaches to Nydiver slightly to east of Whitebark Pass. It was doubtful he would have gone there but wanted to look a bit off the beaten path.
Wish we could have searched further. Matt was on our minds the whole trip and every hiker we passed knew to keep an eye out for any sign of Matt.
Most of all Matt's family was in our thoughts.
Just a peaceful moment from 9/4 (just wind/water not any thunder)
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Alpineholydog
Trad climber
Spring Tx
|
|
Does anyone know what Satellite views Apple uses for their maps? They are more helpful in that they show the area in summer conditions not the winter conditions that google shows.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
With Google Earth you can scroll back to any images they've got. I'm using an Oct 2008 that has the least snow cover I can find. Similar to what Tom Cochrane's images show.
|
|
Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
|
|
Does anyone else here find it in the slightest bit peculiar that a person is up before 6am and texting a person who is 2000 miles away, yet has no recalection on what was said or why he was texting Matt at 3:30 in the morning PST? Was there a texting history between these two, that is were they randomly texting each other back and forth? Did he butt dial/text him on accident? Does anyone know the actual time the person sent the text, vs. the time Matt received the text when he turned the phone on.
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
SplitPants, thanks for your hard work and your progress report...
Kelly, thanks for your work on the map!
Alpineholydog, thanks for your searching and the cool video!
Cragman and HighTraverse, thanks for your thoughts!
HighTraverse said:
From South Notch (axe and crampons recommended), Matt could have the following moderate 4th class objectives:
Southwest side of Ken Minaret (on north side of South Notch)
NW side of Kehrlein Minaret (on south side of South Notch)
Or a short distance further south the NW slopes of Starr Minaret.
HighTraverse, these sound like interesting possibilities which I gather haven't had a search yet.
-Just to confirm, are you saying that for a careful person climbing alone, these routes would be fine without a helmet? (I remember y’all saying something about falling rock t the Minarets but I think you said easier routes were okay.)
-Also, is the most likely trailhead for these routes Agnew Meadows, or would Red’s Meadow or other traiheads be possible/likely?
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
Sonoma Jack, I don’t think the 7/17 2:53am text (I think it was from someone associated with a climbing gym in Pennsylvania) had to have been sent at the time it appears on the bill. As you suggest, if it was sent the night before, I think it would show up on the phone bill as received whenever the phone was turned on.
While it is a little odd the person doesn’t remember sending the text, if that person texts a lot, it might not be that strange. Also, if Matt had been texting back and forth with the person the night before, this could just be the last text in the conversation – something like “Thanks!” or “Okay, good,” sent after Matt turned off the phone and not received until he turned it on at 2:53am.
MGuzzy, as was briefly mentioned upthread and as implied in Ron and Tiffany's handy summary, the phone bill doesn’t show when the phone was turned on or off, but one can tell some times it was on from the timestamps of calls or texts sent or received.
So, I think the unusual thing is that Mat turned the phone on at that hour, not that he received the text. But note that if he hadn’t received the text, we wouldn’t know that he turned on the phone. So while we don’t have evidence for Matt turning on the phone in the middle of the night, he might actually also have done so on other days. As long as he didn’t receive or send a text, check voicemail, or make a call, we would not know he had turned on the phone. On the days that Tiffany’s summary shows no phone activity before the evening, Matt could have turned the phone on several times and we wouldn’t know it.
I still think it's an important question why he turned the phone on so early that particular morning.
I did notice from the phone log that Split Pants posted that on the previous day (7/16), that whereas Matt made some mid-afternoon calls from near the library, his 4:29pm and 4:35pm calls to the repair shop were made from the direction of Mammoth Mountain, perhaps near the Main Lodge. This is very speculative, but I wonder if he was arranging with a Mammoth Mountain employee or someone else at the lodge for a ride somewhere the following morning...
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
are you saying that for a careful person climbing alone, these routes would be fine without a helmet? Two purposes of a climbing helmet:
Keep your head off the rocks in case of a fall and keep the falling rocks off your head.
From what I've read of Matt, he likely would have meant to take a helmet regardless of his climbing objective. I am assuming (reasonable assumption) that he forgot his helmet and by the time he discovered it decided to carry on regardless (see the discussion a couple of days ago). I would carry on and several other experienced climbers have said the same.
But more to your question:
South Notch itself, Kehrlein and Starr can all be done "safely" sans helmet. With axe and crampons, chance of taking a big fall on South Notch is very small. There are "walkup" class 3-4 routes with no snow on Starr, Adams and Kehrlein that also wouldn't turn Matt back if he had no helmet.
In short, I think the lack of helmet should NOT be used to limit likely areas for Matt to go. That would be counter productive. Whereas that equipment list fits the "I'm going to do an easy snow/ice/rock climb" scenario.
What should bound likely search areas?
Areas beyond Matt's one day range. Known to be substantial.
Routes he'd already climbed (not necessarily the peaks themselves).
Routes not requiring ice axe and crampons, at least for the approach. He wouldn't take them if he didn't intend to use them.
The remaining area encompasses most of the eastern escarpment of the Minarets and Ritter and above Deadhorse, Beck Lakes, Minaret, Cecile, Iceberg and Ediza lakes.
Also a small section of the south and west sides of the Minarets accessed by South Notch; as far west as the southwest slopes of Adams.
When considering use of crampons, you should be aware that the hardness (danger) of ice and snow vary greatly with time of day and sun exposure. What is firm ice/snow at 6 AM and requiring axe and crampons would likely be soft gooey snow in the afternoon where you still don't want to take your crampons off (see Cragman's cogent explanation next post). The snow turns to ice again soon after the sun has dropped behind the peaks. Which would be early afternoon in most snowy places in the Minarets.
Matt had enough experience to know all this.
One other possibility I mentioned early on is that Matt ascended from the east, via snow/ice, to one of the many saddles/cols on the spine from Banner to Kehrlein and then toppled and fell down the West (far side).
(I personally know of two highly competent climbers who lost their climbing pack down the back side of a 6500 meter elevation ridge in China. They were very lucky to survive.) It happens.
EDIT to correct proper crampon usage in soft snow.
|
|
HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
|
|
Cragman
Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry I didn't make it clear. Or put another way, just because the snow would be soft midday for the descent from South Notch to Cecile Lake, you would likely still experience firm snow or ice in the morning for the ascent.
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
HighTraverse and Cragman,
Thanks for the clarifications!
|
|
monolith
climber
SF bay area
|
|
The text could have been sent shortly after Matt turned off his phone the night before, then finally delivered when the phone went back on.
|
|
CyDuke
climber
|
|
Has it ever been determined what time the sender of the 2:53am text sent the text? I know he cannot remember what he said, but does he recall what time he sent it? Or can he check his phone records. On his end, it may show when he sent it, not when Matt received it.
It could be important - because maybe the message was sent at 5:53am PA time which is not unreasonable for someone that might be up getting ready for work. He may have assumed Matt's phone would be off but would get the message when he turned the phone on. If this is the case, then maybe Matt fell asleep prior to turning his phone off and got the message in real time. He could have shut the phone off at that point. And that could make a difference in the assumption that he got up early either for a ride or a long day somewhere on foot.
|
|
CyDuke
climber
|
|
If he still got his account he can see the time he sent that message.
He could probably even call his provider and get the info. They probably won't have the content of text, but they should be able to give the time it was sent. Might be important to know.
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
Cyduke and Tioga,
Interesting speculations. Earlier in the thread, Tiffany said:
Text @ 2:53 am most likely one from previous night but Matt's phone was off so when he turned it on he rec'd it. Best guess is he'd complained about ppl packing early am (4am) and it waking him up; maybe the case?! The last text was from an older fellow from a climbing gym here in PA; he can't remember what it was but probably insignificant and not warranting a response.
Jill, John, Tiffany, Ron:
Do you happen to know whether Matt wore a watch and/or used an alarm when on climbing trips?
|
|
kenish
Gym climber
Orange County, CA
|
|
tdg119- Kenish where are you getting these logs. The info I have doesnt show text locations
The 253am text was north of a tower on Mammoth Mtn. This info is stated in the very original post...I also recall some Verizon info posted to a different website before this thread started, and it showed the north direction.
If that is indeed true, it indicates the Main Lodge area. (The campground is east of Mammoth Mtn.) FYI, I have a smartphone on Verizon. Coverage in town and anywhere on the front side of the ski area (north of the peak) is "3 bars" or better. (Texts are transmitted with cellular voice data, and not on the 3G/4G signal).
|
|
onyourleft
climber
Smog Angeles
|
|
Alpineholydog wrote:
Just Returned from Trip through Mammoth. We took Mammoth Taxi up to Agnew Meadows and again noticed how very narrow the road from Mineret Summit to Agnew Meadows is. It would be best searched by hiking and examining the downhill side closely. Lots of brush that could easily obscure things. I think if he hiked to Agnew he had to take this road.
The following are some cell phone pictures taken on my (slow) road bike ride from Mammoth to Red's Meadow and back on Saturday, 8/31:
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
Kenish, as far as I know, no location was provided for the text message, or for any text message. The "top of Mammoth Mountain" location -- later determined by SAR to be more like in the direction of Mammoth Mountain, perhaps at the Main Lodge -- was for when Matt called the repair shop at 4:29pm and 4:35pm the previous afternoon (7/16). I think there was some initial confusion about this here...
Split Pants posted:
This is the call/text detail I have for the 16th and 17th (Tiffany let me know if I copy/pasted something wrong).
7/16 11:12 AM EDT / 8:12 AM PDT 1 Peak -- (voicemail)
7/16 6:00 PM EDT / 3:00 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 6:06 PM EDT / 3:06 PM PDT 24 Peak -- (parents)
From 8:12 AM to 3:06 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.638167 Lon -118.961611, 1601 Meridian Blvd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca.
Directly south of the library. Directly north a mile or two from where Matt was camping.
7/16 7:29 PM EDT / 4:29 PM PDT 1 Peak -- (repair shop)
7/16 7:35 PM EDT / 4:35 PM DPT 2 Peak -- (repair shop)
From 4:29 PM to 4:35 PM cell phone registered:
Lat 37.630528 Lon -119.033078, 5920 Minaret Rd, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, top of Mammoth Mtn. After examination/discussing with SAR and looking at the Azimuth (deg) per the ping, it was determined Matt "possibly" called from the Main Lodge or anywhere in that direction.
This is the last phone call from Matt’s phone (per MLPD no more pings after the 16th of July at 4:35 pm)
7/16 7:40 PM EDT / 4:40 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 8:57 PM EDT / 5:57 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 9:13 PM EDT / 6:13 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 10:38 PM EDT / 7:38 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 10:52 PM EDT / 7:52 PM PDT Text Received
7/16 11:09 PM EDT / 8:09 PM PDT Text Sent
7/16 11:34 PM EDT / 8:34 PM PDT Text Received
Per MLPD Verizon re: text message retrieval. Verizon only holds that information for about 3 to 4 days.
Per Verizon too much time has passed by.
July 17th (Wednesday)
07/17 5:53 AM EDT / 2:53 AM PDT Text Received
Family traced who sent that last txt message and made contact but unfortunately the individual does not remember what he'd said and it's no longer on his phone.
Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no outbound phone call activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off.
The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
Per MLPD: Verizon nor any other cellular service provider ping text, it pings the telephone when the telephone is on, not turned off.
|
|
Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
|
|
"When camping, I often find myself awak in the middle of the night, and out of boredom or curiosity turn the phone on to check email, check the weather forecast, or whatever. A lot of spots on the East Side have cellular data reception."
Yes, true, but as duly stated, Matt had no history, whatsoever, of doing anything like this. You pull a month of records, you would think you would see some kind of pattern. His pattern was, apparently that of being sound asleep at 3am. The cell call here is peculiar, and I'm in no way implying some sort of foul play, as that just doesn't seem likely.
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
Per MLPD: 2:48 pm, July 17, 2013, 39 Pinecrest, Mammoth Lakes, Ca, Verizon building and tower.This address is the main Verizon building/tower in Mammoth Lakes. There is no outbound phone call activity after the 16th of July, as indicated on my Verizon emergency request re: Greene’s cell phone, his phone was turned off/powered off.
The 2:48 pm is not a ping, because there is no Lat & Lon indicated.
So, what does piece of data mean, since it's not a ping?
Tioga, forgive me if I'm just rehashing stuff you know, but as I understand it, a ping means a cell tower sends a signal to a phone and the phone responds. I gather that a cell phone provider can find the location of a cell phone in two ways. If the phone has GPS capability, it uses that to determine where the phone is. If the phone doesn't have GPS, the location of the phone can sometimes be determined by triangulation -- by measuring the relative strength of the cell phone's response to several cell phone towers. (I think we figured out that Matt's phone didn't have GPS but am not sure. Also, the police say that texts don't involve pings, so the exact location of the phone when it received the 2:53am text can't be determined.)
So I think this piece of data just means that someone tried to call Matt on the 17th at 2:48pm, but his phone was either turned off or out of range. So the "location" was given as the location of the cell phone tower that tried to reach the phone, which was the main Verizon tower in Mammoth Lakes. (Given that Matt often turned of his phone to save battery power and probably also was out of range, I don't regard this as very informative.)
The phone bill also says that that was one of three calls that were made to Matt's phone on the 17th, that all reverted to the main cell phone tower. I'm a little curious about the timing of the other two calls, but they wouldn't provide us with much info -- just other moments at which Matt's phone was off or was out of range.
|
|
Sonoma Jack
Social climber
Sonoma, ca
|
|
I'll ad just a couple of observations. My son and brother were hiking the JMT, and were taking a two day break in Mammoth on July 16-17, so this story peaked our curiosity, and I've been following it. Based upon the information collected so far, I believe that the 3am phone Check indicates that Matt was indeed set to travel to a far off destination, which could have lasted more than one day. It seems he knew his car would not be ready until later in the day, or even possibly the following day. He had no job of obligations that put him on a tight schedule. If memory serves, he didn't give his friends an exact ETA on when he'd meet up, but an approximation.
When I picked my son up in Merced after his hike, at the Amtrak Depot, he was with a group of foreign hikers from Chili he befriended in Mammoth. We had a brief conversation in Spanish after my son introduced them. I found it interesting that the highlight of their trip, and their main objective was to summit Mt. Whitney. I'm not saying that this was Matt's plan, but I would think Whitney would be high on the list of foreigner, or East Coast visitor to the high Sierras. It is a destination of many an outside visitor. He could have received a ride to Lone Pine from one of these foreign tourist who were picking up a partner hiking Whitney. the following day, they leave the country, have no clue that he's missing. One other question you might need to ask: Was Matt first and foremost a backpacker/hiker, who also enjoyed climbing, of was he a climber who hiked as a means to achieve his climbing endeavors? The answer to this may help determine his destination. If I were involved in searching for Matt, I would certainly make the drive to Lone Pine and ask around.
|
|
LAhiker
Social climber
Los Angeles
|
|
Tioga, interesting thought, but the log posted by SplitPants says that the MLPD said that Verizon said that Matt's phone was "turned off/powered off" when the 2:48pm call came in and that there hadn't been a ping. :-(
There are good hypotheses here about Matt's possible objective. But I wish there was something -- some technical info, access to Matt's email accounts, a conversation someone had -- that could narrow things down!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!