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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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May 28, 2006 - 02:11am PT
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Werner, I have these students who show up to my photo workshops with an old abused Pentax K1000 and a 50mm lens, and others who show up with a backpack full of new Canon gear that they can't figure out how to use. As you can imaging, these folks joined the class for very different reasons. You can probably guess who gets the better pictures when the dust settles. It's the highschool kid with the K1000. Less gear means you have to get more creative. You have less crap to figure out, so pay more attention to the subject. You're watching for the critical moment while the digital guy with an $8,000 camera is flipping through menus and evaluating histograms on the LCD. Meanwhile the battery went dead and the action is over. Now, there are some clear advantages to shooting digital and having that fancy camera, but not unless you're already solid and ready for all the gadgetry.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 02:19am PT
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When you say 100 iso is grainy, do you mean bas as in grain at 8 x 10, or grain as in 11 x 14, or what?
I thought hte grain in 100 and 200 speed films had been licked a long time ago.
Old fujichrome 100 seemed perfect, 13 years ago, what happened?
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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May 28, 2006 - 03:03am PT
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Maybe it's all relative, but I'm making some big prints from these little chunks of film. Above 16x20 the film grain is really evident, it's gotta be pretty tight. So far 32x48 is the biggest I've made a fine art print, and there were some cool billboards made with my work recently, that are pretty low res. 32x48 is pushing it, some would say it's too far, but it really depends on a number of things, including the image content, grain, sharpness, etc.
200 ISO film is way grainier than the good Fuji 50 and 100 films out there. If I want a 200 film I'll push 100 a stop to get better grain and color than a 200 ISO film. The Provia 100F is actually tighter grained than the Velvia 50, but I like the Velvia better anyway. There's always room for improvement, but these are all pretty good emulsions. Velvia 50 came out in about 1989 and is still the king as far as I'm concerned. When Karl wakes up he'll probably flame me about not using a digital camera.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 03:36am PT
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GOtcha.
I had no idea you could ever get that large and be anywhere near happy from 35 mm.
How does the grain compare to kodacolor 25? Do peopel not shoot chromes any more for your kind of work?
They used to say shoot slides and pay the big bucks for the special processing to make a really big print, is that not true any more?
BTW, that three grape pic, it looks positively three D. I got the same feeling from fujichrome 100. How did you do that?
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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May 28, 2006 - 04:09am PT
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"I had no idea you could ever get that large and be anywhere near happy from 35 mm. "
100mb Drum Scans, LightJet or Ultrachrome prints, Edge sharp masking in PS- it's all different than the days of Type C's, Cibachromes, and Dye Transfers. 35mm looks like medium format in the old darkroom. 4x5 is jaw dropping, while prints from an 8x10 camera are like, pick up your pants off the floor.
"How does the grain compare to kodacolor 25? Do peopel not shoot chromes any more for your kind of work?" Kodacolor 25 was pretty good. Hard to get it processed anymore. All the above films are chromes, slides, transparencies, what ever you want to call them. More and more are going digital. Guys making their living from their prints seem to be shooting film still. Amateur market, journalism, editorial, advertising...everyone else, is going digital, except for some luddites.
"They used to say shoot slides and pay the big bucks for the special processing to make a really big print, is that not true any more?"
The only difference now is that you have to get the film scanned, while digi guys start at the scan. Big prints are still expensive.
"BTW, that three grape pic, it looks positively three D. I got the same feeling from fujichrome 100. How did you do that?"
Point, shoot.
Actually it was with an 85mm macro lens at f22, real close up, with a reflector from below and at the left side to get the light to wrap around. It was on the vine still, sunlight from above.
This was the same vineyard two weeks earlier during harvest
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 09:01am PT
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HAHA yeah, die transfer, that's what I remember.
Nobody does kodachrome 25 anymore, sniff, sob, boo-hoo. It was so pretty.
I feel like a dinosaur.
35 looks like medium now, wow, that is so cool!
So medium must be incredible. I'm more inclined now to buy a wide angle and polarizer for the 6 x 7 and take some pictures now.
I would never have guessed 35 from those first three or 4 shots you put up here. HAHA, so that just demnostrates what you say about 35 looking like medium.
I thought about it a little more, and while I agree your lighting hepled with the three grapes, I realized that you have a slight bit of complimentary color helping too, namely orange and blue. that would make the foreground and background look separated even more.
Guess you can tell I REALLY like that shot.
Very interesting that the high quality end still goes film, how long do you think that will last?
Thanks for all this good info, it's a real education.
Oh yeah post more shots, and do you ahve a gallery/website?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2006 - 09:05am PT
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I'm awake! Jerry's photos are really superb so he can click em however he likes.
If a climber doesn't have the cheap dirtbag genes to save money on film, then better let the dog have his bone.
And Jerry's right about that 200 asa film (at least back in the day)
I had these killer India and Nepal slides, mostly 200 asa Fujichrome, from 1986. I borrowed a killer scanner and thought, "now I'm going to get all that extra resolution that those film guys keep promising me"
Dang, very few of the images would print well above 11x14 and the grain was evident in some at 8x10. Meanwhile, even point and shoot digital was looking far, far better, even in larger prints
Those India and Nepal galleries are here
http://www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?userid=karlb&gallery_id=121105
http://www.printroom.com/ViewGallery.asp?userid=karlb&gallery_id=121103
Some of my most popular images were shot with a point and shoot digital cause that what I was carrying climbing when I got the lucky shot. With the right "processing" many blow up nicely and quite large. I can look around my house where I have a lot of images hung, and I can't tell tell which camera shot which pictures.
I notice photographers often have two modes, either we admire somebody's work (like I admire Jerry's) or we think they're lame. Maybe it's the snob photographer in me speaking but... I can't believe how often I see somebody with an elaborate 8x10 view camera or obscenely expensive rig in Yosemite Valley, pointed at a poorly lit subject at the wrong time of day. Sometimes I wonder what they think the subject even is.
Thank God for that too, because I didn't get the natural talent for climbing, I'm hoping there is really something called "the Eye" that some have and some don't have.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 10:27am PT
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More pics of the deadly vole, squirrel, and rabbit killer...
Kitimus Kat says, "Let's see... nothign left to kill.. .sigh. I'm bored."
Kitimus Kat says, "My crouching tiger can beat your white crane style!!!"
Karl, The EYE is real. Most people do not have it. Most who have it do not develop or really use it. Most of those don't have the rest of the package to do what guys like you n jerry do...
Feel better now?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 28, 2006 - 10:57am PT
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I felt good to start with.
I think girlwatching helped me develop my eye. Or maybe my eye made me girlwatch.
In any case, I can't say it's anything I'm too proud of since, like the guy who can fire one finger pullups at 14 years old, it something of a gift.
I do notice that it can be developed and I certainly have a long way to go with my art.
Peace
Karl
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 11:10am PT
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YOU'll go to hell if you watch too many girls.
I had a dream, a burning bush handed me a... oops, wrong thread, sorry.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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May 28, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Jerry - you telling me I could come to your classes with my 25+ year old K1000 and bring my two kids that I bought the same K1000 to begin their SLR careers and you wouldn't laugh us out of the room???? My K1000 is still the best.... it never needs charged, it is always ready, it's been around the world and doesn't complain sitting in the closet for a couple of years until i get the bug to be creative again. My two kids have moved on to all the digital stuff, but the ole standby is the K1000. Sorry, all my 'pro photo' stuff is in slides and prints, the old fashioned way, .... but agree it is the 'eye' -- you either have it or you don't. Stay well and happy Memorial Day!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 01:56pm PT
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Mom, get a POS kodak with docking station, just leave it on there, no problem, always charged up and ready.
They are so cheap and good, I really can't believe it.
Full manual controls except for focusing, except some of them are a little irritating to use sometimes.
There are many good presets though, and a little playing with those will give amazing results-- like this:
All I had to do was use one of the portrait presets, then work with the zoom to get the right distance for the flash to look good. It helps the the kids are genetically programed to mug for the camera-- both parents are actors, LOL.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Bodega, CA
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May 28, 2006 - 02:30pm PT
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Hi Mom! HA that's funny. Bring the kids and the K1000. Dirt could even bring his Konica and I wouldn't mind. But no POS point and shoots!
Here's my workshop page.
Still have to put up dates for the Autumn sessions, but you'll get the idea. You can jump to the galleries and stuff to see more images.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
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NO POS DIGITAL point n shoots?????
Why jer? R U skeerd of em?
The mighty Konica went the way of all things a long, long time ago. Its sad replacement was a minolta maxxum 9k.
I'd bring the 6x7 to your workshop, and hope it could soak up some of your good ju-ju. Got porters or sherpas to drag it around for me? LOL!
Speaking of the 6x7, what do you think, used 45 mm or used 35 mm?
I might not be able to afford the 35 even used, the 45 is supposed to be like 28 in 35mm equiv maybe?
Got the old gal out, dusted her off, found a 45mm used for 3 or 400 in good shape...
Thanks for the gallery n workshop link.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 09:17pm PT
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Jer, this is NOTHING like your incredible calililly pic in your gallery, but I thought I had better subject you to the POS version, LOL.
This one is weak, but, so am I.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 28, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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LOL, check out the new catsions, I mean captions, on the cat pix.
The cat loves people too lois.
BUt it has NO love for voles, squirrels, or baby rabbits.
As I said, the kids have parents who are actors, they are niece and nephew to me, and they are natural camera magnets.
HEy Lois, you have a POS digital right? Post some pics!
Let's run these high falutin fancy-dan newfangled expensive camera totin photogs off with their tails betwen their legs, LOL!
I think jer is almost ready to trade me his clumsy nikon for my wonderful POS. But I should probably hold out for more, given the superiority of the mighty POS!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 04:21am PT
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I am going to bump this thread until Jer, nlundy and Karl post pics they took with a MIGHTY POS Digital.
Cost not to exceed 200 bucks.
BTW POS =/= (not equal) Point and Shoot.
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Mom
Social climber
So Cal
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May 29, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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Jerry - i'd loooove to do a workshop with you....but have to work in the fall for a living. I certainly do enjoy the photography conversations and postings that occur in this forum... there are so many of you who have an exceptional gift of the photographer's eye and are physically able to travel to places to show the rest of us what we will never be able to see in person. Thank YOU!
Dirt - i have a great Pentax POS that has never failed me (i've biffed it a couple of times) and am struggling with a Pentax Optio MX4... great photos, but the shutterlag is killing me!!!
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2006 - 03:21pm PT
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Mom, I totally agree with you, the photo threads on here are fantstic, and we are lucky to have these great photogs to talk wiht and share their work with us.
Even if they are afraid of a little POS.
Still waiting guys. I KNOW you got rich doing photography, run out to sams and get a little POS, 200 bucks or less, let er rip, it's .. it's,... LIBERATING!!!! 9If you get hte Kocak combo with docking staion, you can spneed a little more, LOL)
Mom, congrats on seeking the one true path-- the POS path! just don't step in anything. The POS path is paved with, well, you know.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2006 - 03:50pm PT
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Sorry Dirty. I might carry a point and shoot on climbs but I make the biggest investment I can stomach on qood quality point and shoot. Right now it's a 7 megapixel Olympus C-7000 that I paid under $350 for. Good Image quality for a POS, 5x zoom lens, but sadly, like 95% of other point and shoots, not quite long enough lens.
Here's one from an old point and shoot
That's the sunset that made me go buy a better camera.
I took the left hand of this picture and handed the camera to my partner to take the right half when I got into position. I stitched them together later.
Which is why the following image, taken with 9 images from a 4 megapixel point and shoot stitched together, looks stunning printed at 20x30 and hung in the Yosemite Museum for months as a selection in the 2005 Yosemite Rennaissance Art show.
The camera that took the three images above probably got down to $200 before they discontinued them.
Peace
Karl
http://www.peaklightimages.com
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