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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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everyone, on either side, seems to have a pretty sure idea about what god might be.
at this point, I am sure that I have no idea what god might be... I just don't see the need to invoke god in the universe, at least to explain the universe... the universe seems quite explainable by just "natural" means...
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Nature on it's own is far more beautiful
awe shucks... I just blushed.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sorry Ed, I only read your first couple paragraphs this morning. Back to it now.
I also condone the possibility of infinite demensions I think this would allow god to see into the past, present and future...like He says He does!
Can U see a possibllity with some sort of "high energy" interaction with earth could could essentially accelerate our preceivable time line? Like if we got bombarded with an excessive amount of the Suns radiation. Wouldn't that in a manure of speeking toast us? Couldn't that make rocks and fossils act older than they actually are?
Thanks for your eloquent input!
BB
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jstan
climber
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Not so, the coccyx does have several functions.
I do have a science/med background and recall from my neuroanatomy & cadaver dissecting days of being fascinated by the long strands which extend from the coccyx. I must say that they resembles a horses tail hairs, but they are not hair (at close inspection) but rather strands of fibrous tissues (filum terminate) which gives longitudinal support to the spinal cord. Plus (in a nutshell) there are nerves, tendons & muscles attached to it (coccyx) eg. glut muscles, sphincter muscles, etc.!
Many biologist used to consider the coccyx a vestigial organ, but current opinions in biology have changed and it is now generally accepted that there are no true vestigial organs.
Just imagine. A website where interesting stuff like this crops up. Would you believe.......
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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I still like the atheist life.
No reason to beg for forgiveness no reason to feel guilt for existing as a human instead of a god.
Batshit has a better story
bwahahha
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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K. U are truly blessed to be able to look around and see and appreciate gods handywork!
I look forward to it everyday! But I also see kids in my daughters first grade class that only get one meal a day. And some with only one parent and they're so withdrawn they won't even look at u. And some are so crazed they go insane. U can't hardly control them. Let alone teach them. This is all happening at our local public Josshua Tree Elemntary school. I've started volunteering as teachers aid to try and help her out. She needs it! But sincerely, if it weren't for Gods direction. I wouldn't be there caring, and I wouldn't be there helping out.
I'd prolly be at the crag thinking of myself.
Jus fixin
BB
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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What's not to like....your Sundays are guilt free!
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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What!!!!
You guys didn't go climbing today so ya all feel guilty ......
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:16am PT
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Some people have looked into the matter of good and not good actions and found that christians and secular people do them in equal measure. So doing good is not a matter of christianity, though it is in BBs illusions. It may be right in his/her own case.
Researchers have also found that atheists generally know the bible better than most american christians.
God-speaking and good-speaking is a different matter - there is a lot of imagebuilding within the christian community - God- and good-braggers.
Though there are also people who are really humble, and not bragging about it.
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slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
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Sep 10, 2012 - 03:56am PT
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Seriously. Do not respond to BLUEBLOCR. Unless you want to spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels.
I enjoy contradictory points of view but that sh#t is stupid light.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:36am PT
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Welcome back Pate!
I thought of you last week when I was traveling through "Pate Valley" in the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 10, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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I think the atheist afterlife will be even more fun.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 10, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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" Atheist after life, fun?"
Yea! Prolly a lot of nude solo caving!
Jus Josh'in
BB
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
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Nice to see ever more climber people going rogue - kicking the bronze-age superstitions of Abrahamic religion to the curb and taking up the cause of the "a-theist" life.
Here's another fine piece by Sam Harris regarding "free will."
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/life-without-free-will
This piece hints to the further challenges in intellect, attitude and culture that lie ahead. You can't help but wonder what fraction of humanity will be up for it though. (esp after reading some of the posts on this thread, lol)
Isn't it a wonderful thing our wills are free? that is, free of demons... free of demonic possession... free of the devil. Archiac superstitions, yes, that umpteen millions of our early to ancient ancestors took to be real; and, it is worth noting - souls (or wills) possessed or free? was the original historical concern of so-called "free will" discussions by the Church and learned men (mostly philosophers and theologians).
My will: Free of demons, yes. My will: Free of causality, no. Conversations concerning "free will" are meaningless without distinguishing being free relative to what - in this case, causality or demons.
I hope future generations will get around to getting clear on this better than our generations have. Still we've come along way. Well, some of us. :)
.....
Pate, nice to see you posting up again. But, alas, this place remains as dumb as ever - at least concerning the more cerebral topics.
Aye, it's the world we live in.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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But, alas, this place remains as dumb as ever
I been saying that for years.
Except I used the word stupid since it has so much more emphasis.
That word really gets under some peoples skin here and they start having these epileptic knee jerk reactions ,,, hahaha
Ho man .....
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:29pm PT
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(Yeah, . . . what he said.)
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
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okay, bluebloc, here we go.
atheistic kurt vonnegut once expressed great admiration for the king james version of psalm 23. he felt the nameless translator in the group of scholars hired by james ii of england gave us poetry on a par with shakespeare.
i would differ with vonnegut there. i think it's poetry on a par with longfellow, whose lovely language has not stood up well against the literary criticism of the past century. pretty words, second-rate ideas. if you think the ST gang is rough, try joining the real dead poet's society.
i have a two-part quarrel with your psalm 23:
1. i am not a sheep. i think being a human is kind of a terrific thing, and humans who resemble sheep (haha, getting back on topic here) are not, shall we say, living up to their potential.
being a sheep isn't a bad thing, for a sheep, but the best life for a sheep is not being shepherded around by some lordly human. (you know where that ends up, right?) rather, it's to be out there on its own in nature, foraging, f*#king, having lambs, palling around with fellow sheep in the herd, enjoying the view under the open sky, butting those who need to be butted (don't you dare, locker), and eluding wolves by rockclimbing (back on the topic again).
i don't know how the noisy christians on ST have lived their lives, but there was no god giving any of this promised help and shepherding in mine. i learned the hard way to figure life out for myself and stand on my own feet. when i've gotten tangled up in the underbrush of life, i've had to learn to extricate myself all by myself. when i've found myself pursued by wolves, i learned to run like hell and get up on the rocks. all the padres who sang that little "oh god has been doing this for you" song didn't have a clue.
here's the deal with god: you're on your own, just like every other living creature on the planet. learn to fly and chirp on your own. eventually you will realize that death is not something to be afraid of.
2. gloating over privileges given in preference over imagined "enemies" is not becoming of a spiritual person. throughout the theology of the west--christians, jews, muslims--there is a strong strain of divine privilege over the damnable remainder of humanity--the nonbelievers, the heretics, the goyim, the infidels. this unthinking monotheism pays a price for such inherent egotism in a stunted spirituality which rarely gets beyond its herd/sheep mentality. the "personal relationship" with an imagined, powerful deus ex machina is closely ushered by an overweening clergy and orchestrated to squalls of bathetic, sycophantic flattery (trying to choose my words carefully here, spider).
whatever the ultimate truth of existence, i think we are here to do our best and to get along with others. religious systems which don't foster that aren't worth squat, as vonnegut would say. stop and think for half a minute. god don't need your stinkin' flattery. from carl sagan, another atheist who had started to come around: "to the buddhist, god is so great he doesn't even have to exist."
___
i find ed's remarks (no, not that skeleton key to the maze of multidimension) signal to most discussions of atheism. like with myself, i don't think ed quite calls himself an atheist, but he brings up a subject which usually comes in an atheist's next breath: morality. without the sanctions of religious belief, why don't we just live life as a pleasant free-for-all?
the answer to that comes in another key word from ed: nature. i find it unlocked in a little exchange in one of the old jacques cousteau television programs. after a long dive in a fascinating coral reef, immersed in its myriad of vibrant, competitive, balanced life, cousteau asks falco for his impressions. "oh captain, it's so moral."
but i'd take the word "nature" a little further. as i've argued with ed frequently here, i think that there are more things, perhaps i have to say in the multiverse--rather than heaven and earth or the universe, than are dreamed of in his philosophy. it's interesting that we may have common ground with our scientifically challenged bluebloc here. science which ignores the patently confirmable paranormal cannot be true science, no matter its sophistication and successes. the definition becomes not nature, on its own terms, but "normal" nature. the history of science has shown many times that that's the hard way to learn. scientists who have not ignored this realm--hynek, vallee, moss, mack--start singing strange tunes. some, like puthoff, become strangely silent. and ed occasionally finds himself among strange conference-fellows.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Sep 10, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
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Some of you atheists and a-theists might recall this exchange...
(after getting canned for her "atheism")
David Drumlin: I know you must think this is all very unfair. Maybe that's an understatement. What you don't know is I agree. I wish the world was a place where fair was the bottom line, where the kind of idealism you showed at the hearing was rewarded, not taken advantage of. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.
Ellie Arroway: Funny, I've always believed that the world is what we make of it.
.....
It's a constant battle.
Keep the charge. Keep pushin it.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 10, 2012 - 01:30pm PT
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This is rather gauche of me to step into this discussion at this stage, not having read the intervening posts, but cosi fan tutti, eh?
Tony, that makes two of us, and I was around Jesuits. It was rumored in the sacristy as we donned our cassocks and surplices that our prish old fart Jesuit, Father , only molested boys who passed the indoctrination profile exam.
He would take aside a boy after mass, telling him he had to take this test if he wanted to remain an acolyte. He placed on the table a bible, a wallet and a bottle of scotch. Now, for the Jesuits, the object of the test was to determine a candidates suitability for the priesthood and their order in particular. If the bible were to be chosen, he's likely to be a good candidate for orders. If the wallet were to be chosen, this would indicate a more worldly vocation, like banking. If the bottle of scotch were to be choen, the man was more likely to be a bum than a credit to the human race.
If the boy were to choose all three, they offered him a try-out.
I read in Daniel Duane's novel wherein God consciousness is explicated to the protagonist by a shoe resoler in Camp 4. Looking for Mo. Good read, good food for thought. As I regurgitated the idea in my mind, put some things down on paper, and came to the possibility that God exists solely in my mind and that you all are concepts I create as I roll along. God I am, is what it came down to for me, and I scared the sh#t out of myself. It's not a comfortable thought, anyway.
Any comebacks? Ed, you constantly amaze me with not just what you've read, how much you must have thought about what you have read, and how clearly you explain these complicated ideas to the crew. It is partly this that precludes me believing or having faith in a system which I alone have created, am creating, and will keep on creating in a universe that is infinite and therefore indescribable in totality. It is this which is scary, that I could imagine an end to it! KF*#K!!!
That last is in exasperation at this writing system where I can't go back and edit because the backspace key and the arrows fail and I can't edit. I wan't commenting on what I wrote, but what the system won't allow me to do. If I were my own creator, and yours and yours and yours and this whole shebang of a universe, why would I bother to supply myself with a crappy sriting system? Or have plagues or nagging spouses or any other of life's littel problems?
Guy Noir, help me!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 10, 2012 - 02:26pm PT
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TB
NICE! TAKE A BOW!
I gotta read it again
BB
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