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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Mar 26, 2012 - 11:55am PT
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Luca Signorelli, perhaps you would consider putting up an Enzollino appreciation thread so we can learn more about him. I know I appreciated his input and perspective here on SuperTopo.
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Luca Signorelli
Mountain climber
Courmayeur (Vda) Italy
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Mar 26, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
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Good idea
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Tibu
climber
El Chalten
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Jun 27, 2012 - 06:25am PT
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Sorry my english is bad.
Rolo hace 5 años quiere sacar los clavos pero buscaba la forma mas limpia,para que los clavos salgan de los agujeros,ej:extractor de clavos a rosca,un elemento usado por mecanicos para sacar bujes.Intentò hacer esto pero fuè imposoble,porque rompe los bolts dentro de la roca dejando un residuo metalico dentro de los agujeros,esto hicieron Hayden y Jason ,"Romper" y "NO" Sacar los clavos .
De los 102 Clavos por lo menos la mitad fueron rotos,NO Extraidos ,iniciando la oxidaciòn de los mismos y la porterior liberaciòn de partìculas color "OXIDO"
Ellos mienten,no limpian Montañas,solo buscan Fama.
Rolo tambien querìa Arruinar los planes de Lama.
El Manejo de la informaciòn de los medios periodìsticos fuè muy malo ya que se utilizò la opiniòn de Rolo,como la verdad absoluta.Pues ocultò informaciòn,Y Alpinist magazine publica solo fragmentos de las entrevistas a Locales guias y escaladores extranjeros,quitando la atenciòn de la verdad.Usaron clavos de Maestri para bajar hicieron solo una variante de salida a la cumbre,no ruta nueva.Espero se arrepientan de lo que hicieron y pidan perdsòn publicamente.Matias Villavicencio
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 27, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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solo una variante de salida a la cumbre
He soloed a variant of a cucumber salad?
Seriously, can someone translate please? If it were French, German or Chinese I'd do it.
solo = only
"only a variation of the exit to the summit"
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skidrc
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jun 27, 2012 - 11:24am PT
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in short (castellano)
Rolo wanted to pull the bolts with a nail puller. Hayden and Jason did not ask for permission. And they didn't "pull" a lot of bolts, but actually broke them, leaving them to rust (oxidize) on the face. Also, did it for fame, not to clean the face, as evident by the leftover rusting bolts on the mountain.
anyways, Im sure you can get more from google translate.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 27, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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"Alpinist magazine publica solo fragmentos de las entrevistas a Locales
guias y escaladores extranjeros,quitando la atenciòn de la verdad.Usaron
clavos de Maestri para bajar hicieron solo una variante de salida a la
cumbre,no ruta nueva.Espero se arrepientan de lo que hicieron y pidan
perdsòn publicamente.Matias Villavicencio"
Alpinist published only fragments of the interviews with the local guides
and foreign climbers, leaving out the real truth. They used Maestris' bolts
to descend only making a variant of the descent, not a new route. I hope
they regret what they did and ask for foregiveness publicly.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 27, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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I wonder if it is the same variant.
I soak the cucumbers in sweet rice vinegar with dill, and then add sour creme.
So sad about Lorenzo; just getting to know him.
So when are we going to get the definitive breakdown of what was chopped and how?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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having just read the Alpinist 39 issue I had some thoughts on what constitutes "rights." As much as I would have liked to have climbed the wonderful Cerro Torre, that isn't probably going to happen for me, my comments are not on the route, but on the nature of what is correct and what is not...
but it is not a philosophical thought, but a practical one.
When you look at what Kennedy-Kruk did it seems totally amazing, particularly the speed with which they did the route, and as they reported, the amount of time they had to pull the bolts, 120, which is in and of itself an amazing number.
These sorts of privileges go to those who can accomplish them... few of us can arrange an expedition to haul the equipment that Maestri deployed on his attempt, few of us can cover the ground that Kennedy-Kruk did, few of us will ever be on that particular mountain, on that route. But those who can generally get to do what they want, to execute in the style that they choose, and connive a route up a mountain, or wall, or cliff, or boulder...
what ever we think, we do believe that those who can are allowed to do...
maybe this is incredibly trite, but I think of the weight of the opinion of those who can't vs. those who can vs. those who do... those who do have much more weight. They put there ass out over the abyss, they ante up, and they win or loose.
How could you deny them the winnings?
The act of Kennedy-Kruk is beyond my judgement, I am not denied a route that I wouldn't be on... they did not rob history, we still have that. But because they could, and they felt strongly, and they accomplished the route,
and then had time to pursue this activity of bolt chopping,
we have no choice but to accept their decision whether we think it was good or bad. They were capable of it.
And that means everything.
If you're capable of going back up there and putting the bolts back in, well, go for it. It is not such an accomplishment, but certainly it is not such an easy thing to do, either.
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BooYah
Social climber
Ely, Nv
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"loose"? Really?
NO.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Great post Ed.
There have been so many great arguments for and against I've found my opinion waffling wildly over the life of this thread. I finally sort of came to the same conclusion that it it's simply "beyond my judgement".
we have no choice but to accept their decision whether we think it was good or bad. They were capable of it.
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Katie_I
Mountain climber
Wyoming
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Just to clarify, in response to Matias' comments about how Alpinist Magazine approached the topic. We didn't leave out the ideas he is talking about. In one of the interviews prior to Matias' interview in Alpinist 39, Luciano Fiorenza discusses the notion that the fair-means ascent was a "variant," not a new route, writing: "Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk simply opened a variation, which does not authorize them to pull the bolts."
Since we didn't want any of the interviews to repeat the same ideas (partly because we wanted to fit in interviews with as many local climbers as we could and partly because we were avoiding redundancy) we printed excerpts from each that discussed different angles of the controversy. The only reason we didn't include Matias' comments about a "variant" was that Luciano already commented on the same notion a few paragraphs earlier.
Anyway, the goal was to present a large number of varying opinions (both pro- and anti-chopping) and let readers decide for themselves. There are also two essays by Rolo and Luca (who are familiar to this forum, of course) which take opposing sides.
Page 67 has a topo map showing the various ascents on the Southeast Ridge (courtesy of Rolo), so perhaps readers can look at it and make up their own minds.
Thanks,
Katie Ives (Alpinist Magazine)
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giomoz
Mountain climber
italy
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Oct 19, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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2 FACTS OF CERRO TORRE
for rolo:
all true...but without maestri bolts: nada 'very fast ascent' for K&K ;)
we do not need Silvo Karo for say that maestri has been an animal in 1970.
for Mariana Fava, daughter of Cesarino Fava:
Compressor and bolts like Gioconda? ;))))
the real lack of respect for the mountain is to have allowed maestri to prick the Cerro.
with respect giomoz from Italy
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:01am PT
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Is there any truth to the rumour that outraged climbers plan to go up Cerro Torre in the next few months, and replace the bolts that were removed? The holes are still there, all you need to do is tap something in.
The rumour, that is, that I just started...
Or was it a tourist gondola that they were going to build? Some half-baked nonsense, anyway.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:04am PT
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Hey, the season is just about to start down there.
It isn't going to end until Cerro Torre is sediment in the ocean.
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giomoz
Mountain climber
italy
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Oct 20, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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The sixth planet was ten times larger than the last one. It was inhabited by an old gentleman who wrote voluminous books.
"Oh, look! Here is an explorer!" he exclaimed to himself when he saw the little prince coming.
The little prince sat down on the table and panted a little. He had already traveled so much and so far!
"Where do you come from?" the old gentleman said to him.
"What is that big book?" said the little prince. "What are you doing?"
"I am a geographer," the old gentleman said to him.
"What is a geographer?" asked the little prince.
"A geographer is a scholar who knows the location of all the seas, rivers, towns, mountains, and deserts."
"That is very interesting," said the little prince. "Here at last is a man who has a real profession!" And he cast a look around him at the planet of the geographer. It was the most magnificent and stately planet that he had ever seen.
"Your planet is very beautiful," he said. "Has it any oceans?"
"I couldn't tell you," said the geographer.
"Ah!" The little prince was disappointed. "Has it any mountains?"
"I couldn't tell you," said the geographer.
"And towns, and rivers, and deserts?"
"I couldn't tell you that, either."
"But you are a geographer!"
"Exactly," the geographer said. "But I am not an explorer. I haven't a single explorer on my planet. It is not the geographer who goes out to count the towns, the rivers, the mountains, the seas, the oceans, and the deserts.
The geographer is much too important to go loafing about. He does not leave his desk. But he receives the explorers in his study. He asks them questions, and he notes down what they recall of their travels. And if the recollections of any one among them seem interesting to him, the geographer orders an inquiry into that explorer's moral character."
"Why is that?"
"Because an explorer who told lies would bring disaster on the books of the geographer. So would an explorer who drank too much."
"Why is that?" asked the little prince.
"Because intoxicated men see double. Then the geographer would note down two mountains in a place where there was only one."
"I know some one," said the little prince, "who would make a bad explorer."
"That is possible. Then, when the moral character of the explorer is shown to be good, an inquiry is ordered into his discovery."
"One goes to see it?"
"No. That would be too complicated. But one requires the explorer to furnish proofs. For example, if the discovery in question is that of a large mountain, one requires that large stones be brought back from it."
The geographer was suddenly stirred to excitement.
"But you-- you come from far away! You are an explorer! You shall describe your planet to me!"
And, having opened his big register, the geographer sharpened his pencil. The recitals of explorers are put down first in pencil. One waits until the explorer has furnished proofs, before putting them down in ink.
"Well?" said the geographer expectantly.
"Oh, where I live," said the little prince, "it is not very interesting. It is all so small. I have three volcanoes. Two volcanoes are active and the other is extinct. But one never knows."
"One never knows," said the geographer.
"I have also a flower."
"We do not record flowers," said the geographer.
"Why is that? The flower is the most beautiful thing on my planet!"
"We do not record them," said the geographer, "because they are ephemeral."
"What does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?"
"Geographies," said the geographer, "are the books which, of all books, are most concerned with matters of consequence. They never become old-fashioned. It is very rarely that a mountain changes its position. It is very rarely that an ocean empties itself of its waters. We write of eternal things."
"But extinct volcanoes may come to life again," the little prince interrupted. "What does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?"
"Whether volcanoes are extinct or alive, it comes to the same thing for us," said the geographer. "The thing that matters to us is the mountain. It does not change."
"But what does that mean-- 'ephemeral'?" repeated the little prince, who never in his life had let go of a question, once he had asked it.
"It means, 'which is in danger of speedy disappearance.'"
"Is my flower in danger of speedy disappearance?"
"Certainly it is."
"My flower is ephemeral," the little prince said to himself, "and she has only four thorns to defend herself against the world. And I have left her on my planet, all alone!"
That was his first moment of regret. But he took courage once more.
"What place would you advise me to visit now?" he asked.
"The planet Earth," replied the geographer. "It has a good reputation."
And the little prince went away, thinking of his flower.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 30, 2012 - 04:40pm PT
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Papa Noel brought a few days of calm but humid weather to the Chalten massif over Christmas, with poor conditions for rock climbing, but good conditions for crampon climbing. Jon and I hiked into the Torre Valley on the 23rd, and on the 24th we passed through the Standhardt Col into the Circo de las Altares with heavy packs. On Christmas day, we, along with an incredible 20-or-so other people, climbed Cerro Torre via the Ragni Route. It was of course a bit disheartening to arrive at the top of El Elmo and see about six rope-teams in the mixed pitches, but in the end everyone made it to the top on Christmas day, and everyone seemed to get along well and be at peace with the crowding.
From Colin Haley: http://colinhaley.blogspot.com.ar/2012/12/papa-noel-brought-few-days-of-calm-but.html
Apparently the bolts that were removed haven't really hindered those who want to from climbing Cerro Torre, via the original (Ragni di Lecco) route.
Is 20 to the top on a single day a record? Did so many ever get up the southwest ridge in a single day?
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Cloudraker
Sport climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 30, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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Conga line on Cerro Torre headwall xmas day, 2012 from Colin's post
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 31, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
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OK, that blows my mind.
I guess this is what the future holds.
I hope they had some good translators in that crowd.
(and it is heartening to know that the route is still readily doable)
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