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Mimi
climber
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Edited: PTCC, since you are so eager to hear about Ammon taking big whippers (that's really nice of you), why not have the sense to start your own thread on it? This thread was never intended to be about Ammon and Kait. Their efforts deserve its own thread, not here. So what if I never met them? You're giving my friends grief over the same point. Take a chill pill, punk.
Bubba, yes, the reports have changed over time. Since they re-emerged on climbing forums to reinvent themselves, they first held the position that every time the drill touched rock it was filled with metal, then a ladder of bathooks came to light, then a ladder of batheads came to light, and then the issue of 145 narrow Leeper Logan hooks and how those were made to work came up.
Skid (MSmith) posted the following provocative statement: "There are lots of enhancements on wos but you won't see them." Bwana has said 10% were enhanced with a drill before being used.
I don't know about you, but I don't think 10% qualifies as "lots," but we've been dancing around this issue the whole time. What flows forth from this figure is that 130 times (90%), Bwana or Skid reached up with that golden hook, and scratched around and made it work without resorting to a hammer and drill or chisel. Whether you accept this or not is entirely up to you, but that's the crux of the argument at this time.
Pete, don't think much of them and don't think much of you. Where's the news in that?
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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kevin-
this is aid climbing material:
no human has fingers thin enough for the vast majority of it. A clean line for 250' (there are 7 on this wall, this one was done to 160'). Next door was a super steep line on a tower that was FA'd by a forum member (with help on lower stuff by me) that again is too thin for fingers and rises 110' on its third pitch to the summit.
that is aid.
It is sad when I see photos of aliens next to crappy head placements- that is just laziness (especially Hudon's photos of stellite hard granite). A pin or head is never the first choice but aid climbers with some talent still have to reach for iron once in a while.
I am more pissed at holes and the drill. With age I reach less and less for the drill and avoid electric drills like the plague. I think the issue has always been the improvements made on WOS. Maybe Ammon's ascent will clear up the myths. The thing to remember is WOS is just a variation and not a bottom to top line and follows a slab- something most who haul loads dread.
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Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
camped on P3 of WOS
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YOUR SERIOUSLY going to tell ME TO TAKE A CHILL PILL?!?!?!?! BITCH. GO CLIMB OR CHOP OR VISUALLY INSPECT UP CLOSE WOS,,, find out for YOURSELF whats REALLLY going on up there,,, and QUIT F*#KING WHINING. LOVE THE FACT you LOVE to call Richard and Mark names("Bwana and Skid" on that note with choices like that you do sound like a 50 year old woman wash up has been, and thats for sure!), BUT YOU can not handle being called out ON ANY LEVEL, and then MUST RESPOND AND BE RIGHT about it ALL!!! YOUR F*#KED, and I don't give a sh#t, end of f*#king story!
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT!
PASS THE F*#KING CHONGO,,, CHONGO
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Prod
Trad climber
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Who inspected the route and chopped the first 2 pitches prior to the meeting with the Park Service?
Prod.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Mimi, thanks for the replies.
First I have heard about the supposed "bat hook ladders" and "bat head ladders" - guess they are not on the first six pitches since those have reportedly been done more than once. (But then I don't have time to go read a couple thousand posts, hence the questions)
Are these ladders confirmed by a reliable source or just a rumor? Photos?
Seems pretty short sighted for the FA party to not mention them - it's not like a repeat party wouldn't find them, thus busting the FA team.
If it's a rumor, what happens if Ammon and Kait don't find these ladders?
What if it really is just a bunch of enhanced hook placements connected by the occasional bolt or rivit?
On the subject of hook enhancements, assuming the truth is being told, it doesn't matter if 10% or 90% were chipped to me except that one seems exponentially lamer than the other. Obviously, I am in the "chipping is weak sauce" department and it doesn't matter to me who did the chipping, Bridwell, Jardine or the WOS team. And, if the enhancements are as light as it sounds, you would never know the true number anyway.
(Not to be dissing the Bird as his resume speaks for itself but I do think there were some bad decisions made, esp. on the Sea, which I have done)
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Mimi, compared to you, LEB's posts are starting to rational. You're an embarassment to women. Please shut up now. That's all.
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yo
climber
Mudcat Spire
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I love lamp.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Mimi
climber
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Bubba: Are these ladders confirmed by a reliable source or just a rumor? They were unconvenient details brought to light by subsequent parties. I believe they're around P4-6. Right around here, our heroes dropped some of their bolting gear. For some strange reason, they were trying like hell to not drill bathook holes, even though the difference between a bathead and a bathook is laughable. Higher up, when forced off their original line, after 30 days on the wall, they were much reduced and finally resorted to outright bathooking to get over to the Aquarian.
What if it really is just a bunch of enhanced hook placements connected by the occasional bolt or rivit? That's what most of us haters think it is. Ammon's report, despite being 30 years later, will be illuminating.
Your comments about enhancing being bad practice regardless of who did it is spot on. No one is denying that. I've talked to Jim about it more than once to gain a better understanding. And you're also spot on about if the enhancements are as light as it sounds, you would never know the true number anyway. That's right and that's what Bwana and Skid lean on like an old crutch.
canyoncat: You're another anonymous twit. Since you and PTCC are so perturbed, simply skip over my posts. The right to speak my mind with power is the height of feminism, little girlie. Or whoever you are. I hope you garnered your fair measure of monkey spunk for standing up to the mean old lady so forcefully. LOL!
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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fascinating...
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fosburg
climber
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There's something very interesting about the fact of this route WOS and the way it polarizes opinion to such a high degree. In some way this one route serves to underscore the legitimacy of wildly divergent but obviously true beliefs.
First of all the true observation that aid climbing, let alone nailing, is as Todd Skinner famously noted, "not climbing". Etriers, mechanical hoisting, give me a break. So we have a debate about different styles of not actually climbing, hmm...
Then the Grossman/Mimi self-loathing nailing ethic that obviously nailing and enhancement alter the rock and should be minimized and honestly reported. And obviously there's no cracks on that gigantic slab so why even choose such an inauspicious line?
But obviously if nailing and drilling are to be avoided because of the damage to the rock, the best way for someone to personally minimize that effect would be to not do it. Don't nail, don't do first ascents that require nailing and drilling. That gigantic slab obviously is going to require drilling and if you're lucky maybe a few nailed placements. Good job Steve, Mimi and everyone else for choosing to not do a first ascent there. Good job choosing better lines for your FAs.
But these guys chose to do a route there. Seems like an obvious bad choice (think of all the killer new routes that were waiting to be done in the Valley at that time. How about Freerider, no drilling or nailing required, no undignified standing in aiders "climbing", 12c, I'm sure... Lot's of others come to mind).
But they put their heads down and did the best job they could with their chosen (jacked) line and it certainly seems they have been more forthcoming and detailed in their description of what they did up there than maybe any climbers in history, indeed morally compelled to do so by their stated beliefs. That's obviously fairly noble. Seems like a major stretch to call those guys liars.
The WOS FA team are obviously being held to an unfair double standard by a vocal minority when we take into account the fact that aid climbing but most specifically nailing is obviously pretty debauched by definition because of the alteration of the rock and is so no matter who does it. It seems to obviously come down to a stylistic question of "degree" which is of course arbitrary and impossible to agree upon.
The acrimonious and ad hominem attacks are certainly a symptom of very weak and insecure reasoning and should be regarded as very dubious.
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#1SuperMama
Social climber
Oakdale, Ca
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Latest report - makes not a lick of sense to me but here goes...
Ammon finishing pitch 6. Sleeping at top of pitch five tonight. (Ok - I got that one)
Ammon passed Hunter & Slater at pitch 5.
Pete, Ammon has added NOTHING! (Hey, I got that one too!)
Pete - the answer to your #4? = lots of original heads rusted at base and when moved a couple of times they break apart. Or as Kait enhances it with "rusted heads have been crumbling in his bloody bare fingertips." (that's a I kinda get - especially the visual image)
Pete - #5? answer = ripped a Yates Screamer on a fall - A & K say it's PROUD! (No clue!)
Pete - later in ur message = mostly natural hooking with some enhanced. And some of the enhanced ones, Ammon able to hook around using natural edges. (No clue!)
P.S. The 3 enhancements used thus far by Ammon & Kait: undies, Kait's FUD, and most definitely the Fiveten rubber! (Hey, I got that one - but most of you won't get the first enhancement - hahahahaha)
Will be up taking pics tomorrow, so no report 'til late.
And they are counting food and water and are good to go if they can stay on the 9 more day plan- 1 a day until they finish WoS and swing onto the final route up.
Have a good one! And don't forget to Live-Love and most definitively - Laugh
Ciao
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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AKA, Balls of Helium!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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Thanks for the updates #1Mama!
Go Ammon and Kait!!
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:15am PT
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C'mon, we want more!
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:15pm PT
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Mimi: "They were unconvenient details brought to light by subsequent parties. I believe they're around P4-6."
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that until yesterday when Ammon made it, only Slater had claimed to have climbed the first six pitches. Neither made mention of any bat hook or bat head ladders.
Has anybody else (with a name and not some mystery man) really climbed those pitches?
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
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Wait, I thought mimi was one of the shitters? At least that's what I read on the internet!
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Meow Now
Trad climber
Emerald City
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Jul 10, 2011 - 09:01pm PT
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Oh Skipt, you are such a man. Mmmmm...
I don't go for those big, bulging...I mean, I prefer real men like you.
You are the type of man that likes to be led by the nose in the real world, but you cetainly know how to show your prowess hiding behind the skirt of your computer.
You are such a turn-on.
I usually only look for you on this forum because you have so many important issues to discuss on The Super Topo a Climbers Forum.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
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Ropeshitting is a medical condition and hence protected by HIPAA laws.
Don't even think of going there.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 10, 2011 - 10:30pm PT
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Coz, do you think I was just hanging out in the C4 lot chasing down a little dick back in those days? Yes, I know one of the shitters had me tooled but he wasn't really one of the shitters and I still love him even though he tried to lay it down on that occasion but could not. And is ground up all you need, Coz? I know damned well you are simply missing the whole story to be a wannabe booster on this one. You were around back then weren't you? People either don't remember, weren't born, or never gave a damn about style and respect in the first place. Have you taken the time to go back far enough to read what Steve's said on the subject? You and The Chief, now there's a match made in heaven.
Bubba, the bat hooks showed up on the escape to the Aquarian higher up. The bat heads showed up down low and were complained about by the Thaw party.
Here are the posts from Thaw's partner Calder (11/09):
"wow, who knew that a 13 pitch variation could warrant so much attention! I've read just a few of the threads and can clearly tell that I don't have the tenacity to sift through all of this information. Are there cliff notes available for the WOS web saga? For what its worth, this is what I know about the route. In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. I don't remember a whole lot about it other than we started at 5:30 am and were on top of the fifth pitch by early afternoon...there were a few whippers to be had, the z-macks and rusty bat heads were frustrating. If I remember correctly, there was some sporty/tricky hooking sections, but nothing that I would consider crazy.
We found no A5 (rip whole pitch and die type stuff) on the pitches we climbed. I would say the climbing had sections of solid A3 (many body weight placements with a 50' fall potential). Like I said, there were some sporty sections of hooking, six in a row doesn't seem out of line. Tim led the second pitch and fell 30-40' and pulled a rivet or two on his way down, but didn't get hurt. The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill, there were lots of z-macs and some god awful rusted out bat heads.
Calder
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