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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the "original state" of the Valley is not known to us, the written descriptions about the way things were describe the state of the Valley as managed by the indigenous people, prior to their occupancy the Valley could have been very different...
...it is perhaps something that could be studied, but rather difficult to track the changes of the flora over time.
Which brings up the point about managing wilderness, an oxymoronic combination of words. We manage Yosemite National Park as a notional wilderness, and the authority to implement this notion rests with the NPS and a consensus of visitors.
Exactly how do you distinguish between a climber use trail and a trail built and maintained for horse packing into the back country? at least in terms of "wilderness experience?" If the climbers are by far and away the majority of the people who move around at the base of El Capitan, who's sensibilities regarding "wilderness experience" are compromised?
I recently climbed through the mayhem caused by falling rock on the RORP, and all along the base of Reed's is evidence of minor rock fall, tree limbs torn off trees, trees uprooted, stumps left of trees I remember from 10 years ago, that is minor compared to the huge chunk of rock that fell off of Last Resort Cliff, which took out an equally huge swath of forest.
I am not saying that sawing trees in the Valley should be condoned, but the NPS has done it to keep sight lines open and make the park attractive to visitors, in the roads it has cleared and maintained as well as chosen trails, turn outs, etc. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that climbers had done it, but commercial concerns that have come into the Valley with the intent of completing some project (e.g. filming) have been known to interpret some restrictions "liberally" when obstructed in pursuit of their goals. It has been a while since I've seen climbers with charcoal and lighter fluid around in the Valley...
There are many other places which have been limbed, the Old Oak Flat Road seems to get a "hair cut" to keep it open, who rides mountain bikes along that road? isn't it citable? What makes that acceptable? there certainly aren't a hell of a lot of climbers up there, but the road sure keeps trim.
Hopefully climbers will intervene when someone is doing something stupid like limbing trees, and hopefully it won't be climbers doing the limbing.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Mmm... I prefer to hang off of a portal ledge than sit around a charcoal fire. I wonder who's getting so creative and... If they even own a climbing rack.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Wow. Dislike.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2011 - 01:45am PT
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A few thoughts:
The "brutal practice" definition of limbing=another failed attempt by me at humor...didn't think so many people would have an issue with that definition. Sorry about that, pruning might be a better word. At least everyone understands what we are talking about.
Ed,
If we (as a culture, nation, etc.) did not follow through with the dreams of John Muir and Aldo Leopold and create designated Wilderness...it doesn't take a lot of imagination to think about what may have become. You are right to say that managed wilderness is an oxymoron. Unfortunately we no longer have the luxury of having unmanaged-Wilderness and actually have healthy and diverse populations of animals and plants. Maybe in the ANWR, that is about the closest thing we have to the ideal definiton. In the meantime we will try to do our best to preserve the Wilderness Character of what exists.
Dan McTwisted and others, Like Werner and other local climbers who I've talked to, we're pretty sure we know who did this. The person I'm thinking of is a climber. These ARE huge branches, another reason this is so disturbing.
The fire burning the limbs, and the charcoal with lighter fluid were probably other people, and maybe/hopefully not climbers. Part of my point showing those photos, is that one thing can lead to the next. Someone who is honestly trying to help maintain trails in the way they think is best goes out and cuts some branches, they decide that this should be the norm and start doing this on several approaches. Then other people come by want to have a good time, and wow look someone cut us some fire wood. The green branches don't burn so they send Billy-joe-bob back to the truck to get the charcoal and lighter fluid.
Jesse
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2011 - 01:59am PT
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HB,
Thanks for your restraint on the East Ledges:) I've also been in situations where a branch or a tree is right in the way of where I want to climb or belay or hike. Also thanks for pointing out that climbers usually self police. I think that is the way to go on this situation as well. Communicate to your friends that this is not an alright practice. Not everyone agrees, but most climbers agree that they don't want to see rangers patrolling the base of El Cap more frequently.
The idea of restraint is part of what kicked off the clean climbing revolution. Yes we can pound a pin in the crack and it was easier at the time, but we learned that friends and stoppers and other widgets work just as well in most cases, and are way easier/faster to use. Same goes for bolts, yes we can drill a bolt, but we can also place gear or run it out.
In Yosemite there is almost always an easy way to walk around a large tree branch without cutting it off.
Jesse
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MBrown
Big Wall climber
Los Angeles, CA
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The fire ring was from a group of DNC employees partying up there
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks, Jesse. I noticed the widening of the Nose approach trail last year and it bothered me.
It looked to me like part of the reason it was done was to find more flat dirt to hike on, instead of the streambed which the trail had become.
The streambed with loose small rocks could be a bit tough on ankles with a heavy load.
Although it seems likely to lead to a wider set of eroded trails.
The ultimate solution might be if the trail someday became an official trail, to route it away from the drainage path to something less subject to water erosion.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I would expand on my previous remarks and those of Clint's, to wit: there should be a real trail leading to the southeast and the southwest base of El Cap. The ad hoc trail leading to the southwest side is the subject to severe erosion over the years and has many variations leading hither and yon. There are also many trails leading up to the popular big-wall routes starting on both sides, including the tat-rope on the fourth class slabs to Lurking Fear and beyond, the trail beyond being very loose.
A real trail would be a big improvement to the approaches. It would direct everyone onto a single approach, and could be managed.
The only other way is to keep climbers off those routes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Got news for you Jesse,
the "clean climbing revolution" is a scam, a hustle meant to flim flam land managers.
Climbers do what is easiest.
Clean anchors are the easiest to use on free routes, but when it comes to aid walls, even if it has been proven that a route goes without further hammering, climbers will continue to degrade the resource with hammers if they perceive it as easier.
They will even alter the route to the point that it can no longer be done hammerless.
Climbers talk a good game, but look at what they DO.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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So we've agreed that at the FaceLift, FatTrad will waterboard the usual suspects?
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Carbunkel
Gym climber
hellonearth
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Just for the record, I have a 42-inch bow saw that can easily take off a 6" live oak branch in fewer than thirty seconds. With even a crude saw like mine, taking off big branches is easy enough for any moron.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Ha! So where were you last Tuesday?
We do need an official trail that would limit impact, create an easier approach, be manageable etc. I was out there last fall and while sitting on a rock way off the beaten path, I was trying to draw the mountain when several random hikers (none were climbers) bumped into me. People are crawling all over that place and... Heck, none who found me were climbers since those folks take the shortest direct path. It's the curious that go exploring way off route.
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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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That "trail" is a mess, a spiderweb of social switchbacks, last-minute poopies, stashed bags, and bear habitat.
Agreed: a trail (official or social) that sees so much use needs maintenance, erosion control, and (dare I say) some planning. If the NPS could be convinced that the descent from Cathedral Peak could be worked on, officially, by NPS trail crews, methinks the same argument(s) could be employed to justify some work on the trail up to and left of the Nose.
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
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Thanks all for the constructive commentary,
I'll probably start another thread on climber trail work in general but here are some initial thoughts.
I am working with our Trail Crew and Restoration Crew on compliance/planning and a grant proposal to the Yosemite Conservancy (formerly the Yosemite Fund) to work on climber trails and staging areas.
The climber trails will not be made into "official" trails as part of the National Trails System. The primary interest in managing these trails is to reduce the associated impacts of approach/descent trails, and the base of climbs. We'll restore extra or redundant legs of trails, and do some minimal rockwork, work on drainage, checks, etc. The trails will be minimally wide and often unmarked. We don't want to encourage hundreds of non-climbing visitors to hike up to the base of El Cap, Washington Column etc (think about Yosemite Falls, Bridalveil, or Vernal Fall footbridge). The more adventurous will find their way, and they are all, of course, welcome. In some places we will leave "biner" posts like we have already on other approaches.
We will seek the climbing community's feedback on your priorities.
The Cathedral Peak trail delineation opened up some new possibilities of cooperation with Trails and Restoration on climber trails, and I think the result will be more sustainable climber use trails. Hopefully we'll get the funding, but at any rate there will be several volunteer days where you guys can all help out. I'd love to meet and work with any of you regardless of your opinions of me and the NPS in general. We'll be starting on Pat and Jack's in June, and some other trail maintenance days will be a part of this year's Facelift.
In the meantime checkout our work from last fall at Lower Cathedral.
Thanks again,
Jesse
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mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
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sounds good jesse, count me in for pat and jack cliff
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Ottawa Doug
Social climber
Ottawa, Canada
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Thanks Jesse for bringing this to everyone's attention. Chopping a 6" diameter 15' long branch off a tree is offensive.
Ciao,
Doug
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pick and missing my mama.
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Thumbs up Jesse! I would love to volunteer if I can have free camping at Yellow Pines. :) Might even be able to convince the husband to keep his feet on the ground for a day.
AFS
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Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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good job Jesse balancing environmental and user group needs. would like to
check out the work at Lower Cathedral, as you suggest, but don't want to risk getting hit by low lying branches...maybe you can post photos, I really don't want to get dirty...
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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