Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
May 13, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
|
Think of this thread as a trip report from the very weird universe that Klimmer mentally lives in.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
May 13, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
|
Here is how bible code works. Just pick and choose letters out of words to make it say whatever you want it to.
Here is the "proof" that Bible Code predicts the 9/11 attacks:
|
|
lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
|
|
|
May 13, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
|
Klimmer,
Guess the real question to all of this. Are you as a Christian?
Let’s do a planning/briefing/debriefing session. We are just going to do an exercise.
OK! You are just driving along 395 at night and notice something strange. That light is something you have never seen before? You are hesitant but this could be your real proof that you have been searching for. So you check it out.
Jesus Christ, Holy Mother of God, it’s a space ship. You wait! You are jumping up and down with joy. [Most likely you peed in your pants] “Sh#t! Wish I brought the camera with me.”
Door opening up and ramp follows to make way for the first contact ever of this new person, animal, or vegetable. No, it is someone. Light coming from behind blocks your view. Can’t make it out yet.
You meet; you get him/her/it to turn around so you can see what he/she/it looks like. HMMM? Something strange, hadn’t planned this; they do not look like you. You stretch out your right hand in a gesture of friendship and notice this thing has a dick embedded in his/her/it right hand. You back off and offer your left hand and now notice there is a vagina in other hand of this creature. You try to hold your emotions to show that you are OK with this. Eye contact says it all: fear, hostility or non-threat, they’ll be watching.
My question to you since you prophesy as a christian, God made only one man and one woman. Man was made in God’s image.
Colour should not be a problem but most christians that I usually meet think and believe “it’s a white issue”
Do you plan to do any Gay bashing? Wait just went back to see your last post ”pre-emptive” guess you would have had shotgun aimed and fired by then. Well there goes the neighborhood. I suggest you run.
The movie: “Independence Day” funny thing about it was that the US was the only country that had the technology to save the Earth. Canada could not help out, Russia, India, China out of the loop as well. A black man saved the world.
Klimmer: Do you think Pat Robertson and his white fellow christian prophets can with all their vast amounts of stealing and rhetoric? Is Pat baby the devil himself? He once said M fifteen for the British MI5 [MI-5] Liaison with Security Service, did God give him wrong message?
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
May 13, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
|
GraniteClimber,
You absolute disrespectful bastard....
That has to be one of the funniest things I have ever seen!!!!!!
Just brilliant!!!!!!!!
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 06:57pm PT
|
Wow! Look at all the banter.
Busy at the moment, but I will get back and respond.
Just one thing. I'm thinking no matter how much evidence is presented many of you will not ever think the UFO/Alien phenomenon is real until an EBE comes up to you and shakes your hand, or probes you in a not so very nice place.
And even then you'll probably think you're dreaming -- this can't possibly be real. You'll think, "It is sooo contrary to and against all my pre-conceptions" (or should we call them mis-conceptions).
I'll get back to ya . . .
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 13, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
|
I have refrained from posting because there is nothing more to say, Klimmer believes in this stuff and while there is no good evidence of anything that he says, he isn't going to change his mind on it.
Ed, I would like to clarify what I do think.
I do not believe in UFOs/Aliens, I believe in and trust in GOD and his Son Jesus Christ. Are UFOs/Aliens a real phenomenon? Yes they are. Why do I think this? Because the physical evidence says so.
You use the same arguement that Michael Sherman, publisher of Skeptic Magazine uses when argueing with physicist Stanton Freidman on the Larry King Live Show . . .
CNN Larry King Live-UFOs-Are They Out There?-pt2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW2KRzm0tvk&NR=1
Michael says the evidence of UFOs/Aliens doesn't exist. He just outright claims that, yet he hasn't looked at the physical evidence that does exist. Michael just makes unfounded proclaimations. Then Stanton calls him on it. How can you say that when you haven't looked at all the evidence? Unless you are unbiased and take a good look, and check out all the data and the evidence you will never know. I once also didn't think it was true, but then I looked at the evidence good, long, and thoroughly. Until you do the same you can not make the proclaimation that the evidence doesn't exist.
Human witness is a very fallible piece of evidence. People can be mislead by any number of perceptual limitations. Remember perception is not just what it is possible for you to sense, but what your nervous system does with those sensations. Humans are convinced that the world is a certain way, and that they sense it as it happens, when the actual case is quite different, as has been demonstrated many times in well designed experiments.
Yea, human witness is so fallible it must always be in error (sarcasm). Sorry, but when thousands of eye-witnesses see and describe the same phenomenon witnessing the same event, then it rings true. We have witnessed so many crafts flying in our lifetime we are all very good observers when we see something and notice something very different and recognize it when it falls outside of our normal experience, such as the massive craft that flew over Phoenix. Science relies on human witness and our ability to observe. We are observers. If you think we are not very good observers, then you must reject a great deal of observational science with prejudice. It isn't our only means of evidence and data, but it is a good deal of what we do in science, depending on the phenomenon and study.
And we are not just talking about a great deal of human witness and observation when it comes to the UFO/Alien phenomenon. We have a great deal of other empirical data: large amounts of imagery and video exist, RADAR returns, ground measures of radiation phenomenon and well as other ground phenomenon, physical ground deformation, and yes even crafts (that do get confiscated and locked-up out of the reach of public observation). Sightings of UFOs are increasing in number as time goes by, and not just here in the USA, but all over the World. To discount this is again to discount the reality of this truth.
So even American Heros can be mislead (if in fact the quotations offered are representative of what they intended at the time). The words "Unidentified Flying Object" mean just what they say, though we have heard these events interpreted as "Alien Space Craft" so often as they have almost become synonymous.
Really? Space heros are mislead such as Gordon Cooper? He witnessed Foo-Fighters in WW2, many pilots did. Common knowledge. Then witnessed a spaceship land in front of him at a military base in CA and his crew filmed it. Then the government came in and confiscated the film and asked them not to ever talk about it again. Yea, he must of been mislead and dreamed up all these experiences. He must be a nutjob. Apparently we hire nutjobs, and keep them on the pay-roll even after they have these nutjob experiences.
Don't get me started regarding Astronaut Edgar Mitchell, the 6th man to walk on the Moon. He has directly spoken to those who have seen the UFOs/Alien bodies, and has been told that the US government is covering it up, by those who know that are on the inside, and that UFOs/Alien phenomenon is real. He has access to those who know. Are you going to sit back and call him crazy and insane? Again we have space heros who are nutjobs and whackos? I don't think so.
The vast majority of UFOs are explainable, some with more complex explanations than others, as physical phenomena, weather, misperception, etc.
Yes, some are. Many are not. Look at the official government records from around the world.
There are a class that defy explanation, but usually because the evidence is not good enough to draw much of a conclusion. In fact, the evidence most likely to be brought forward as supporting the extraterrestrial intelligence origin of UFOs falls into the category of "not good enough to draw any conclusion on."
There are those that defy explaination no doubt. But then there are those that have been explained and then confiscated and hidden and purposefully covered-up. To denie this again would be to denie the clear evidence and testimony of those who experienced this and where then threatened to remain quite.
One piece of support for this point of view is the rather long time the ET/UFO interpreters say these sightings have been happening, essentially throughout recorded history. Yet there is never any definitive evidence in all these years to conclusively make the case. This is not just a USG conspiracy, but a world wide conspiracy that has been around for as long as we have records, throughout all of history.
The UFO phenomenon has indeed been recorded through history. Many programs out there that bring this truth out into the open such as the History Channel: Ancient Aliens.
Aside from extremely good limits on what is possible, in terms of space travel for any intelligence (be it biological or "artificial"), there is the daunting task of seeking out the places in the universe where life might have happened... that is, mostly it doesn't. You have to search the universe, find the planets and travel there in a finite period of time. It would be highly improbable that life elsewhere would find us here, even if they could overcome the problems of long distance travel, which is not likely.
Sorry but they are already here, so our understanding of space/time travel needs to be re-worked and re-figured. If a phenomenon exists, and you say it is impossible and that it can't exist, considering our current understanding of the natural laws of physics, then guess what? Our limited understanding of space/time physics is wrong and needs to be revamped and re-worked. We do not know everything. Perhaps we only know the thickness of the polish on the bowlingball, of all knowledge that there is to know.
However, if you would invoke the supernatural, well anything is possible... and it moots any rational discussion on the topic.
I do not have to evoke the supernatural to know that the UFOs/Alien phenomenon is real. It can be explained entirely by science and the laws of nature, if we had that level of understanding of these laws.
However, I do invoke GOD, and what I know from his word, to place it in the context of my religious faith so that I may understand. I get it that you do not have faith in GOD. I understand that.
Klimmer can wait all he wants for the "Truth" it's not going to happen because it isn't true... but he has other explanations why it won't happen... and he is not alone.
Sorry Ed, it is already happening right now. Truth is happening. It is either real, or there are mass halucinations around the World.
You can only have it one way.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 01:09am PT
|
Science relies on human witness and our ability to observe. We are observers. If you think we are not very good observers, then you must reject a great deal of observational science with prejudice. It isn't our only means of evidence and data, but it is a good deal of what we do in science, depending on the phenomenon and study.
No, science does not rely on human witness, it relies on our ability to test our observations empirically, and to be able to explain our observations, and the effects of our instruments in terms of the very same physics. In addition, the observations are to be explained in terms of the state of our scientific knowledge, where they do not, and they are considered to be credible, we have to start looking for other explanations. But the tests that our observations must withstand in order for them to start to challenge theory are rigorous.
If a phenomenon exists, and you say it is impossible and that it can't exist, considering our current understanding of the natural laws of physics, then guess what? Our limited understanding of space/time physics is wrong and needs to be revamped and re-worked. We do not know everything. Perhaps we only know the thickness of the polish on the bowlingball, of all knowledge that there is to know.
I didn't say it was impossible, but we do not lightly rewrite what we understand based on essentially no evidence. And the "revamping" process is highly unlikely to result in the major changes to our understanding that would make space travel possible. However the fact that this argument is largely driven by belief and not by hard evidence is an indication that this is not science.
When you are pressed to provide evidence, you say that it exists but it is held secret by the government. A convenience for you, but not evidence in any sense of that word. Hearsay is not evidence.
Aliens are here? point one out, let them provide proof.
Is it strange that the only physical evidence is apparently in the possession of the US government, that no other physical evidence exists that is not sequestered away? Anything is possible then. This is not evidence.
Whether or not I have religious beliefs is quite irrelevant to my ability to conduct science. Science, I believe, is not based on belief or faith.
Either you have the evidence or you do not.
On balance, you do not have the evidence. You suspect that the evidence exists, people you trust have even told you that it exists. But you do not have it.
Without the evidence, you don't really have a case to make here. The "massive ark on the moon" could simply be a geological object which was photographed in such a way that it could look like something else... hard to tell without actually doing something more than scanning poor resolution photographs, or any photographs...
...but you don't have any additional reason to believe that those pixels represent the image of anything but moon rock, the simpler explanation of the two, the other being your OP title.
Just rocks.
much more likely.
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 02:00am PT
|
It doesn't matter how unlikely it is to him, because its HIS truth. And when someone has a belief, they will often interpret the world in terms of that belief instead of objectively looking at the evidence. A very unscientific view. Which is ironic because Klimmer strikes me a guy who fancies himself a scientist. I find this troubling. Many people no longer see science as a method of objective and skeptical inquiry.
Klimmer, your belief in alien spaceship encounters is likely part of the same cognitive process that allows you to believe in the bible code. You start with a belief and then look for the evidence to support it, no matter how improbable. Its science in reverse. All the while ignoring the indications which tell you otherwise. And to cover the counter evidence, you create outlandish conspiracy theories.
No one, not Ed or anyone else, has said that eyewitnesses are hallucinating. They are simply interpreting an unexplainable event in the only terms they know how, or how they have been told to interpret it. Its a well researched phenomena in cognitive psychology.
Also, your links to so called "physical evidence' are bunk. NONE of them work.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicalevidence.htm
I think you post all these links in the hope that they will add credibility to your claim. 90 percent have nothing to do with the arguments you're trying to make, or what you claim they prove.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 14, 2010 - 09:37am PT
|
Maybe you guys didn't read that announcement from our #1 NATO allie, so I will post it again:
Like I said. Disclosure has happened. Now what are you going to do about it? How will your World-view change? This changes everything.
And will there be any apologies forth-coming?
Crickets . . .
|
|
howlostami
Trad climber
Southern Tier, NY
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 10:04am PT
|
Dude, read sheet 6 of that report. Not to be rude, but paragraphs 9 & 10 pretty much completely refute your insinutations.
The report basically said, yes, people see thigns in the sky, and no, those things aren't things we care about.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 11:48am PT
|
some other excerpted passages from this report:
12. Considerable evidence exists to support the thesis that the events are almost certainly attributable to physical, electrical and magnetic phenomena in the atmosphere, mesosphere and ionosphere. They appear to originate due to more than one set of weather and electrically-charged conditions and are observed so infrequently as to make them unique to the majority of observers. There seems to be a strong possibility that at least some of the events may be triggered by meteor re-entry, the meteors neither burning up completely nor impacting as meteorites, but forming buoyant plasmas. The conditions and method of formation of the electrically-charged plasmas and the scientific rationale for sustaining them for significant periods is incomplete or not fully understood.
KEY FINDINGS OF DEFENCE INTEREST
17. The overall analysis, which has included an examination of reports received during the Cold War, indicates that:
 There is no evidence that any UAP, seen in the UKDAR, are incursions by air-objects of any intelligent (extra-terrestrial or foreign) origin, or that they represent any hostile intent.
If the documents are what they claim to be, then it seems that a lot of serious thought has gone into trying to understand what this phenomena is... and ETs don't seem to make the list of possible explanations
are there other documents you'd like us to read for you Klimmer?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
|
Now Ed, Pate, et al,
We aren't going to be so naive as to believe any old thing we read in a gov handout, especially if it is a denial, are we? Jess sayin'...
I mean the Air Force flat out lied to the Congressional Budget Committee that the 'Aurora Project' existed even when presented
with its $20 Billion line item in the 1992 (?) Pentagon budget proposal.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
|
A music interlude to calm the storm . . .
The Carpenters - Calling Occupants of Interplanetary Craft
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BrSVOOK610
That's actually pretty hard to watch. Poor Karen Carpenter looks skeletal, and knowing how she died in a few years...
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
|
I was in Alaska when this happened:
JAL Flight 1628 Over Alaska
In November, 1986, a Japanese crew of a jumbo freighter aircraft witnessed three unidentified objects while flying over Alaska, USA. This sighting gained international attention when the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced that it was going to officially investigate this sighting because the Air Route Traffic Control Center in Anchorage, Alaska, had reported that the UFO had been detected on radar. Captain Terauchi was featured on numerous radio and TV programs and in People Magazine. Within a few months of these events he was grounded, apparently for his indiscretion of reporting a UFO, even though he was a senior captain with an excellent flying record. Several years later he was reinstated. The UFOs in this case were tracked on both ground and airborne radar, witnessed by experienced airline pilots, and confirmed by a FAA Division Chief.
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/jalalaska.htm
"Either there's something there or there isn't it," says former FAA division chief John Callahan. "Is it a spaceship or not? Why would they say it's a spaceship if it's not? The radar ain't lying."
Radar reports were part of what Callahan investigated while working for the Federal Aviation Administration in 1986. The investigation stemmed from a report by a Japan Airlines 747, as it flew about 50 miles from Anchorage. An inexplicable image appeared on air traffic control and military computers, and the three pilots flying the plane claimed they saw a UFO.
"The pilot has it on his radar, and then the pilot and the other two guys in the cockpit look out the window, and they see him over here, and they see him over there, and they see him over here, and for 31 minutes," Callahan says.
The FAA said the incident was due to a radar malfunction. The CIA believed the pilots, Callahan says, but it buried the story. "The CIA said it was a UFO. The CIA said we're not going to tell the public, because it would scare the public. They told me that."
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1322.htm
You don't get into the left seat of a 747 if you are prone to seeing 'things' for 31 minutes.
You don't get to be a FAA division chief if you can't read a radar screen.
Jess sayin'....
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
|
therefore........what those people saw where space aliens. Good logic.
The Story of Clever Hans: An example of why skepticism is so important .
Clever Hans was an arab stallion from Russia. In 1900 he was purchased by Wilhelm von Osten, a retired schoolmaster. Von Osten was convinced that animals possessed an intelligence equal to that of man and spent much of his time trying to prove his point. He had started by trying to teach a cat, a horse and a rather troublesome bear how to do simple arithmetic. Neither the cat nor the bear showed the slightest inclination to fill their heads with math, but the horse, Hans, was of a different calibre altogether.
Von Osten taught the horse to recognize the numbers one to nine, first with the help of skittles. Hans would tap out the correct answer with his hoof. Von Osten then replaced the skittles with numbers on a chalkboard. A sum was drawn up on the chalkboard and Clever Hans tapped out the answer. In a short time Clever Hans could work out reasonably complex calculations including some square root. Scientific observers were astounded and they could see no signs of trickery. After some tests by eminent mathematicians, the horse was considered to have the math ability of a 14 year old schoolboy.
Clever hans and his owner enjoyed world wide acclaim, but the scientific community remained skeptical and a group of leading professors was asked to subject the horse to five weeks of intense scrutiny, on every test Hans got his sum right. Then one of the scientists, a psychologist from Berlin named Pfungst, had an inspiration. Could Clever hans get the right answer if the horse alone could see the numbers?
While one of the team wrote down the numbers and left the room, everyone else including the psychologist moved behind the blackboard. Of all of those left in the room, only the horse knew what was inscribed on the blackboard. Clever Hans failed every subsequent test. What the horse had been doing, proposed Pfungst, was to take ques either from his trainer or from other people in the room. Hans was able to spot very subtle movements such as a minute nod of the head and to detect the tension experienced by everyone in the room as he approached the correct answer.
Scientists since have discovered that horses (and dogs) can detect the heartbeat of someone standing nearby. As Clever Hans drew close to correct answer an increase in everyone's heartbeat indicated the place for him to stop tapping his hoof.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
|
I'm wondering about reading comprehension...
...right now the science, such as it is, pursues the hypothesis that these objects are atmospheric phenomena related to buoyant electromagnetic plasmas. These would be seen on radar, and they would be visible... how they persist for such a long time is a matter of enquiry.
They are unidentified... they may appear to be "flying" and their light emissions certainly make them look like "objects" though their low mass make this phenomena appear "inertia-less."
The statement regarding "scaring the public" is apt, because, apparently, the public lacks the ability to look at the claims of ET/UFOs critically.
It is strange and disheartening, and as good a demonstration as any of the poor job we do educating people in the sciences. (As apparently reflected in the teachers of that topic, too).
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
|
"buoyant electromagnetic plasmas" maintaining formation for 31 minutes at Mach .82?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
|
"extraterrestrial life forms utilizing superluminal space travel in a universe containing 1 septillion stars" ?
I'll go with the plasmas
|
|
lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
|
|
|
May 14, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
|
I will go for Pat Robertson.
"Robertson Advocates Stoning for UFO Enthusiasts"
by Skipp Porteous
Freedom Writer Magazine
In a recent pronouncement, television evangelist and Christian Coalition president Pat Robertson advocated death by stoning for UFO enthusiasts.
Freedom Writer magazine disclosed Robertson's statement in its July/August issue. Freedom Writer is published by the Institute for First Amendment Studies, a group that monitors the right.
Robertson used the news of the July 4th Mars landing to promote his extreme beliefs. A segment on the July 8, 1997 broadcast of The 700 Club featured news of the Mars Pathfinder mission. Employing the historical event as a starting point, the program delved into the possibility of the existence of UFOs and space aliens.
While Robertson viewed the space program with suspicion, on a more serious note, he launched into a diatribe against those who entertain the existence of space aliens and UFOs. In a rambling discourse, he said that if such things exist, they are simply demons trying to lead people away from Christ. According to Robertson, the threat is so serious that people who believe in space aliens should be put to death by stoning -- according to "God's word."
"The Bible says the Earth belongs to man, but the heavens belong to the Lord," Robertson said. "He has given us the Earth. He also warned, way back when Moses was writing down not only what is the Ten Commandments, but Deuteronomy, which is almost the Second Law.
"Here is what he said to the children of Israel about this whole matter:
"'If there is found among you, within any of your gates which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who has been wicked in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing His covenant, who has gone and served other gods and worshipped them, either the sun or moon or any of the hosts of heaven which I have not commanded you, and you hear of it, then you shall inquire diligently. And if it is indeed true and certain that such an abomination has been committed in Israel, then you shall bring out to your gates that man or woman who has committed that wicked thing, and stone to death that man or woman with stones.' (Deuteronomy 17:2-5, NKJV)
"Now, that's what Moses said to the children of Israel about those who worship the sun and the moon and the hosts of heaven, because these things, at best, are lifeless nothings, or, if they are intelligent, they're demonic. And, yes, there is a host of heaven. There are angels and there are fallen angels. There is no question about it.
"Can a demon appear as a slanty-eyed, funny-looking creature? Of course he can, or it can. Of course they can deceive people. And if they can lead somebody away from the true God, or away from Jesus Christ, anyway it happens, it doesn't matter, you will lose your salvation. It doesn't matter how they get you. The question is, did they get you, and under what guise?
"This is man in rebellion against God, who refuses to take God's Law. And God says, 'My covenant says you won't do this. And if I find anybody in Israel,'-- "which is his pure nation" -- 'If I find anybody in Israel that's doing this sort of thing, then I want you to take him out and dispose of him.
"It's a clear violation of God's word."
This post is frying my brain
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!