Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 4, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
|
These are a real bitch to remove. In this case, the rivet is usually good but the hangers are really bad smc. Makes me not so stoked to place any more of these. Nastiest bolt to remove/replace by far.
Has anyone had luck drilling them out?
Monster tuning fork?
?
??
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
|
|
5/16"
meh
try a 3/8" buttonhead, nighmarish, and that was only 3/4 buried in pinnacles rock.
yikes!
|
|
Loomis
climber
*_*
|
|
Hey, switch over to the other one, way better control and you can clean up a lot more crap from the leftover metal.
|
|
Wack
climber
Dazevue
|
|
"Makes me not so stoked to place any more of these."
I thought Rawl quit making them a decade ago? They are the best way to go if you are hand drilling as they only take slightly longer then a 1/4 incher to punch in but are way stronger.
|
|
Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 03:56pm PT
|
center punch the remainder back into it's original hole and then patch the hole with the remainder of the shank in place
No chance to redrill the same hole? The idea here is to not punch more holes in the rock if possible, even if it takes a while to drill out.
They are the best way to go if you are hand drilling as they only take slightly longer then a 1/4 incher to punch in but are way stronger.
Following that logic, a 3/8" doesnt take much longer to drill than a 5/16" buttonhead. I think if there is the need for speed then 1/4", everything else stubby stainless 3/8". Spend an extra 3min drilling now saves hours later on. If drilling rawl studs is your choice, you can get the 2.25" length and cut it down to 1.75". Basically same holding power as a 5/16" buttonhead but stainless, still impossible to remove though...
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Yes, a tuning fork with a large enough gap for 5/16" is helpful.
Multiple knifeblade pitons also help, especially for getting started.
Also, the main trick is to get it out as much as you can with fork/pins,
then you tap it back in! Blow out the dust and repeat.
When the bolt is finally out, blow out the dust, rotate the bolt 90 degrees, and pound it back in (with hanger). Then extract again - this will help widen the hole for redrilling with 3/8"; otherwise that part can be very tough. [Edit: this technique is for hand drilling; not needed for power drilling]
SMC hangers with 5/16" are usually the good ones (stainless, not the thin chrome moly). The stainless SMC hangers are plenty good enough - the biner will break before they do.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
I meet very little resistance from 1/4 and 5/16 bolts with this unit. It's not big enough for 3/8 though. It's a wrecking bar with the end cut off, but you have to spend the extra $ for a hardened one.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Roger and I, 90-95% of the time, redrill the original hole.
This is in hard granite, and we are enlarging from 1/4" (and sometimes 5/16") to 3/8".
If I was replacing a 3/8" rawldrive in softer rock (like breccia at Pinnacles or grainy granite/quartz monzonite), then the hole would be enlarged, and either a new hole or enlarging to 1/2" would be the way. Often at Pinnacles, the old 3/8" bolt is a Star Dryvin, and the hole will be intact.
Of course, if you are replacing non-stainless 3/8" wedge bolts, those can't normally be pulled, so cutting and patching is the only option for them.
|
|
slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
|
|
WOW - I guesss I'm old but 5/16" used to state of the art for lead drilling. A good 3/8" rawl/powers really is not that much harder to drill though. At 2.25 " they are quite strong in granite.
Pulling a 5/16 means really getting under it with A KB or such as Clint suggest, Is it really that bad a bolt ?
|
|
slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
|
|
Well who doesn't want a fresh clean hole ?
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
True, the non-SS Rawl 5 pieces could definitely be very hard to get out, and if the granite is not very hard, the hole may be enlarged.
We are lucky and it is mostly 1/4" that we replace; pretty easy to pull and enlarge/deepen the hole.
5/16" - yep, they can be quite good. We are looking mostly for 1/4" in Yosemite Valley, not going out of our way to find 5/16"!
[Edit:] See Greg's comments on the next page, too.
|
|
Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2010 - 07:19pm PT
|
Ksolem: Nice, looks like I need to get more leverage.
Clint: The hangers on these aren't the super thin ones, 5/16" never fit through those. Most of the time the newer smc/rivet combos are really good, I agree. Not with these, unfortunately, they are toast: 2 are badly cracked (whippers?), the rest have normal corrosion for being in a water streak and having combined plated/stainless. Yeah, 1/4" are the worst and are (luckily?) really easy to pull.
Chief: I always try to redrill if the hole is useable. If a 1/4" pulls easy and I'm hand drilling and the rock is feelin solid: SS 3/8" 5 piece. Case by case basis, though. Sometimes the hanger is bad sometimes the rivet. Sometimes both are still good. If the hole is rotten/crooked, boschin it to a 1/2" might be required. Yeah, sometimes a new hole is required. From my experience most bolts that pull clean can be redrilled.
Thanks for solid info everyone. Keep up the good work.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
Interesting timing that this thread came up! I had just made some new tools for the specific purpose of removing 5/16" Rawl "buttonheads."
Has anyone had luck drilling them out? Drilling down the center of a 5/16" x 1-1/2" bolt is quite impractical in the field. It would be possible to cut/grind off the head, remove the hanger, and then use a diamond core drill to make an oversized hole. That would be quite a chore, and with an expensive core bit. Power tools required of course.
Monster tuning fork? Yes, that will work, with varying results. Try a 1" cold chisel, with a 5/16" slot cut or milled into it. Then grind the tip so that the angle is more acute.
It works very well with 1/4" bolts. I've had some success with 5/16" bolts. My modified chisel tends to flex/spread, and gouges into the rock, causing some additional damage. The general idea is good, and I'm looking to improve my methods. Friends are volunteering their labor to replace 20 year old 5/16" buttonheads, on two of my long friction routes. That adds up to 135 bolts!
Here are some new "tuning forks". Not yet tested.
Above is a Bosch Tile Chisel which might be good for getting the bolt started out of it's hole. Extracting the first 1/4" is the most difficult without gouging the rock.
I'm hopeful that a piece of sheet metal will protect the rock from most chisel marks:
My hunch is that some combination of tuning forks is the best way to extract 5/16" buttonheads.
Nevertheless, (and curiousity getting the better of me) I went forward with my design for a kick-ass slide hammer. Any guesses as to how well this will work?
The "fork" is the cut off end of a Vaughan "SuperBar". Slotted 5/16" and acute angle ground on the tip. Handle can be disassembled (unscrewed) to add additional weight.
Might get a chance to try it out this weekend on some old Rawl buttonheads in Baja. Will report back.
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
"Yank on it, get enough of the shank exposed behind the hanger, cut it with a hacksaw blade enough to break it off, center punch the remainder back into it's original hole and then patch the hole with the remainder of the shank in place."
"I NEVER re-drill the original hole!"
"No more fking around with pulling shet. Cut, punch and paste up!"
"I would much rather have a fresh clean hole for the new SS bolts."
The Chief,
You made your point, several times. I wholeheartedly disagree with your destructive methods. Cutting and patching should be a method of last resort, not the first option. Drilling a new hole should be a last resort as well. The fewer holes in the rock, the better.
Clint has it right (thank you Clint!) "Roger and I, 90-95% of the time, redrill the original hole. This is in granite, and we are enlarging from 1/4" (and sometimes 5/16") to 3/8"."
Wack,
I thought Rawl quit making them a decade ago? (Referring to 5/16" buttonheads.) Yes, that size has been out of production for over a decade. I'm still hoarding my stash of a box or two.
Fixe has a similar looking bolt in slightly thicker, 8mm x 40mm.
The consensus seems to be that it is soft and frequently bends during installation (unless Fixe has changed materials/hardening in recent years).
When the bolt is finally out, blow out the dust, rotate the bolt 90 degrees, and pound it back in (with hanger). Then extract again - this will help widen the hole for redrilling with 3/8"; otherwise that part can be very tough. Additional note: Clint's advice is applicable to hand-drilling. Not necessary when power-drilling.
|
|
willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
|
|
So now there are youtube videos to show you how to work a grinder and where the brushes are!?!?!?!? WTF.
Other than that, cool modded tools bump
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
Clint: The hangers on these aren't the super thin ones, 5/16" never fit through those. Most of the time the newer smc/rivet combos are really good, I agree. Not with these, unfortunately, they are toast: 2 are badly cracked (whippers?), the rest have normal corrosion for being in a water streak and having combined plated/stainless.
Actually the old thin SMC hangers were made with 3/8" holes (as well as 1/4" and 5/16"), and the hangers you are seeing must be the thin SMCs. I've seen stainless SMCs severely bent (like 45 degrees) from use on overhung routes with no cracking, and I've seen a number of the old thin ones cracked.
Before people get into a shouting match, The Chief's advice on chopping the bolt is actually pretty good for 5/16" in grainy not-so great granite (such as Alabama Hills, medium Josh rock, Little Egypt, that sort of rock), while everyone else's advice is good for bomber granite or for soft rock like medium to soft sandstone, Pinnacles, etc. There's that mid range of rock where you will totally thrash the rock under the hanger trying to pull the 5/16", but the rock is grabby enough that you won't pull it easily.
I disagree with The Chief on not re-using the hole, and I think all rebolters should try to reuse the original hole on principle, but it's highly dependent on the rock, and he's dealing with some not-exactly-El-Cap-quality rock down at Alabama Hills, Clark Canyon, etc. I certainly wouldn't worry about dissimilar materials in the hole since enlarging the hole to the new size bolt will nearly always take care of any old metal.
Despite needing to hand drill, we actually have it really easy when replacing 1/4" in granite - easy to pull the bolt and we can nearly always re-use the hole. It can get really messy when replacing bolts that you can't pull, and the Chief has clearly seen this more than a few times. Some crags in Europe have this mess at EVERY bolt: old self-drill bolt with the bolt unscrewed and the sleeve exposed and rusting, old rusty stud bolt chopped off (often poorly) and rusting, and nice glue-in bolt.
Back to pulling 5/16" - for bomber granite, listen to Clint:
Also, the main trick is to get it out as much as you can with fork/pins,
then you tap it back in! Blow out the dust and repeat. The key is repeat - repeat lots of times. Think of it like you are using the 5/16" bolt as a drill to break out rock. So when you tap it back in, don't tap it too flush, and don't go overboard trying to pull out too far before cycling again.
|
|
Llewelyn Moss
Big Wall climber
Ken Kesey's place at La Honda
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2010 - 11:39am PT
|
sound advice, greg. appreciate.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
Please remember that dissimilar metals when matched will in fact create a far more destructive and dangerous situ. Thus, if any hole has a non-SS cone or residual part of the original bolt remaining in the hole that can not be removed, it is best to patch it and redrill when placing any SS type bolt.
I don't think its a deal in this case. The leftover grade 5 zinc plated bits would be the anode when in contact with any stainless steel. If there were any galvanic type corrosion, these bits would get it, and not the stainless parts.
I know folks who've funked out the cone, after pluckin' the sleeve stuff out. I've used an old, trashed drill bit to hog 'em out, too, and that is pretty effective (carbide insert just chews right through the cone and sleeves too, if need be). With a brush and bulb, I'd imagine the hole is pretty clean, especially when redrilled with a new bit (or, a bump up to the next diameter, like 3/8" to 1/2").
Plus, its so dry in your area... I still have never seen an issue with carbon steel bolts matched with stainless hangers. Which, from a galvanic situation would be not great (although not as bad as those aluminum hangers at Index matched with carbon steel bolts, yikes!). And, that zinc plated bolt/stainless hanger combo is SUPER common. Anyone?
Good stuff!
-Brian in SLC
|
|
tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
|
|
I know Bachar had posted the pic of his bolt puller several times in the past. Seems like the perfect tool for pulling buttonheads and not tearing up the rock.
Fortunately I haven't had to deal with 5/16" buttonheads, but one has to wonder with all the difficulty of removing them if they aren't better then we give them credit for, assuming the hanger isn't damaged. I've even pulled some 1/4" buttonheads that were a real bugger.
And put me in the camp that re-uses the original hole whenever possible.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!