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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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Russ, at this point there's no more detailed topo than what you see in the guides. Well, at least in all the moving over the decades, the location of it, if it exists, appears lost to posterity. Perhaps Mark's grandchildren will open some dusty, old box someday and say, "What's this bunch of chicken-scratches?"
Meanwhile, back on the ranch....
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Ray-J
Social climber
socal
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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We are all going to hell and Messner and Twight
Will be there to torment us for eternity...
Bwahahahaaaaa!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:10pm PT
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On the topo front, actually it's sort of ironic how it's all played out. After all, the published topos are supposed to be based upon and an accurate representation of what the FA team submits. So, you can have as much confidence in the published topos as you have confidence that they are an accurate representation of what we submitted.
I, for one, thought that we submitted the second pitch as A5; but sight-unseen, Meyers wasn't willing to put that rating, so the pitch appeared in first publication downgraded to A4. By modern standards, maybe it is, although you can go for an 80-foot ride down that slab (caught by the anchor) if the last hook before that bolt waaaay up there blows.
Oh, well, the published topos should be enough to get the job done. After all, the route is basically just a glorified rivet ladder.
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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Meyers rated the climb A4, but gave that pitch A5. At least in my book he did. Not sure if it's a first pub tho.
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hafilax
Trad climber
East Van
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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How close are the micro-flakes?
What percentage break off and become useless? If you put a rivet in when no viable flakes could be found, is the SA allowed to do the same?
Seems to me that somebody needs to recruit a 90lb wonder-kid to lead this thing. The less force on the hook the better.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:33pm PT
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Well, for 2 large and an F-load of beer, and at least one decent bottle of Italian wine,
it's knott too much of a stretch to think that a starving dirtbag (starving = light) could
be enticed by the bounty - knott to mention the glory - and to suddenly become the
only person presently qualified to spew about the route (priceless).
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Seems to me a strip of duct tape say 3 ft long holds body weight.
Juan
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Not to date myself... but the only guide I have is the Yellow Meyers Guide.... and it ain't in there. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen a topo?
scan and email please..... anyone?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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The flakes vary in distance apart. Sometimes we would second loop a flake to reach another and then would top-loop from that one to reach another. It's hard to describe. Ask Pete, who was most recently on it.
We had something like a 30% hook failure rate. Most of the time pulling off a flake left other possibilities to try, most of which worked. You do reach these short blank "bands" (farther than you can reach past) which is generally where the rivets are. Of course it's possible that new rivets will need to go in. But I would expect falls to be taken before the SA team decides that a potential candidate "isn't viable." We were hooking stuff as small as dimes.
Also, I think that some are magnifying the time that has passed, using this to say that the route is now "very different" from the rock we climbed, as though the flake situation has entirely changed. First, on a geologic time scale, even 30 years is nothing. Second, from the base I could see a couple of the initial flakes we hooked, and they are still there, looking entirely usable as before. Bottom line is that the flakes we hooked withstood some amazing concentrated force. Our body weight was focused down onto a tiny point, and top-looping especially makes that force somewhat outward as well. The flakes that got us up were ON THERE, and 27 years just isn't going to have much of an effect. This whole idea is yet another tempest in a teapot. The flakes are there.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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We had something like a 30% hook failure rate. Most of the time pulling off a flake left other possibilities to try, most of which worked.
Are you saying that your hook failures pulled off a flake thereby created the enhancements you were able to use for upward progress?
Things that make you say "hmmmmm".
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Thanks for the topo!
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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No, what I'm saying is that pulling off one flake left other flakes to try. Usually, one of the remaining available candidates would work. As we climbed, we did get better at figuring out which flakes would more likely hold.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day
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Sep 23, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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You are saying you pulled material off the rock? And that you did it with a tool - in this case a hook?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Sep 26, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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Hey Pete, please post more often while drunk! You're slaying us up here in WA!
Love to see what you'd write after 12 beers...
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:08am PT
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wow, who knew that a 13 pitch variation could warrant so much attention! I've read just a few of the threads and can clearly tell that I don't have the tenacity to sift through all of this information. Are there cliff notes available for the WOS web saga? For what its worth, this is what I know about the route. In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. I don't remember a whole lot about it other than we started at 5:30 am and were on top of the fifth pitch by early afternoon...there were a few whippers to be had, the z-macks and rusty bat heads were frustrating. If I remember correctly, there was some sporty/tricky hooking sections, but nothing that I would consider crazy.
Calder
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:12am PT
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Thank you, good sir!
You wouldn't happen to recall who the lads were that repeated Winds of Change, would you?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 22, 2009 - 05:42am PT
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Hey Calder bro
Thanks for that.
"In June of 1996 Tim Wagner, Kevin Thaw, and myself climbed the first 5 pitches in a failed one day attempt. "
Do you recall which way you went on the first 2 pitches (topo is above on this page)
Makes a big difference I hear
Peace
Karl
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 22, 2009 - 11:15am PT
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Steve: Sorry, I am not aware of any climber who seconded Winds of Change.
Karl: Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well. I couldn't say with certainty, but after looking at a few slides from our trip, I think that we climbed the right variation. Tim Wagner led the first two pitches.
Calder
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 22, 2009 - 01:22pm PT
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Calder- Do you recall anything resembling A-5 on the second pitch? Anything like six consecutive hook placements on the pitches that you did?
Have you ever seen Jensen's book? What interested you guys about this particular route and why didn't any of you return to complete it?
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calder
Big Wall climber
Park City, Utah
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Nov 23, 2009 - 01:09am PT
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Steve,
We found no A5 (rip whole pitch and die type stuff) on the pitches we climbed. I would say the climbing had sections of solid A3 (many body weight placements with a 50' fall potential). Like I said, there were some sporty sections of hooking, six in a row doesn't seem out of line. Tim led the second pitch and fell 30-40' and pulled a rivet or two on his way down, but didn't get hurt. The hooking at times was not obvious and didn't appear to be enhanced with a drill, there were lots of z-macs and some god awful rusted out bat heads.
Never read the book. Just hung out in the valley long enough to become intrigued with history behind the route. Kevin and I were tent bound for a few weeks climbing in the Kitchatna Spires and started talking about going up on the route, mostly out of curiosity.
As far as going back to complete the route? I can't speak for the others, but I felt that my curiosity was satisfied.
Calder
Have you ever seen Jensen's book? What interested you guys about this particular route and why didn't any of you return to complete it?
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