D5 Hammer Project - Financing and Sales Task

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Messages 1 - 148 of total 148 in this topic

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 6, 2009 - 10:37pm PT

Just a note that we have moved on to sorting out financing, sales mechanism, and setting up an account for the donations to the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation. Should have it sorted out fairly soon and will keep you posted on this thread. Once we have this in hand we'll source heads from Ajax and Theron will be getting after them...

Gene

Social climber

Oct 6, 2009 - 10:38pm PT

Thanks, guys. We understand it takes a lot of time.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 04:27am PT

So as it stands now, cost-wise we're up the following with everything but the sling:

Deburr of Forging Flash: 7.00
Milling of Hammer Face: 5.75
Drilling of Carabiner Hole: 6.00
Heat Treating: 1.47
Sandblasting: 1.05
Anti Corrosion Dip: 0.65
Logo Removal: 2.00
Drilling of Handle for Leash: 0.75
Assembly: 9.50

Subtotal: 34.17

(2) Stainless Steel Tangs: 2.92

Subtotal: 37.09

Forging of Hammer Head 16.45

Subtotal: 53.54

Handle: 2.75

Subtotal: 56.29

Shipping 1.55

Subtotal: 57.84

Sling: ?

Total: ?

For the sake of argument let's skip the actual sling cost and any sales overhead and call it $60 a pop. For 250 that makes it $15,000 to finance the project. Theron had talked about doing that in a couple of chunks and maybe just coming up with the Ajax head forging portion first, but I'm not entirely comfortable with him pouring a bunch of work into the heads without being covered or knowing where the rest might be coming from. Circumstances are such that I can't fund $15k or even $5-10k at the moment so that means either we need a financier or everyone who wants one is going to have to pony up a deposit to make this work.

I'm still checking on a couple of financing possibilities and sorting out the accounting / sales / website side of the equation and will keep you folks posted over the next week or two.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 26, 2009 - 07:27am PT

the last tally on the "I Want One" thread
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=853495&msg=989034#msg989034

has about 176 hammers requested.
At $60 a pop thats $10,560

We could ask that people send the $s for their hammers by a certain date... they would need a delivery time and a way of receiving a refund if something happens.

Any business person out there with some ideas? Or an "investor" willing to just break even in the end?

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Oct 26, 2009 - 07:59am PT

"investor" willing to just break even in the end?

Not much of an investment but better than my 401 K for the last decade....

I'd be in to buy one, and pay in advance, but I do not think I ever posted that I would via the other thread.

Prod.

Danielle Winters

Trad climber

Alaska

Oct 26, 2009 - 08:35am PT

I got no problem with ponying up some cash for a hammer.
I can hear the ever rising note's of good steel being driven in to solid granite by my new hot forged hammer~~~ ping pingg pinggg pingggg pinggggg pinggggg!!!!!!!

steelmnkey

climber

Vision man...ya gotta have vision...

Oct 26, 2009 - 09:30am PT

Why not just call it $75 and use the leftover as a thank you to Theron and to go to the foundation?

froodish

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Oct 26, 2009 - 10:40am PT

> Why not just call it $75 and use the leftover as a thank you to Theron and to go to the foundation?

+1

I'm fine pre-paying as well.

Ray Olson

Trad climber

Imperial Beach, California

Oct 26, 2009 - 10:43am PT

awesome what's going on here
this is the real deal

hope this trend of making what we need
right here continues

very cool to see

great job everyone!

John Mac

Trad climber

Littleton, CO

Oct 26, 2009 - 10:54am PT

I'm very happy to pay up front as well.

No reason why you should be taking any financial risk with this.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 26, 2009 - 11:03am PT

> Why not just call it $75 and use the leftover as a thank you to Theron and to go to the foundation?

Final costs plus a fixed donation of some size will be the final hammer cost we'll be asking folks to pay and I suspect $75 will be pretty close to the minimum mark (we'll still accept donations for the ALCF above the fixed amount). The $60 number was just rolling up minimum amount we need to finance. Glad to hear a lot of folks would be willing to prepay, I'd have no problem with it either given Theron's track record putting out some great gear of late.

P.S. I should also note all this are predicated on Theron insuring a last time that he will indeed be covered by these numbers.

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Oct 26, 2009 - 12:00pm PT

Thanks for the heads up. How about something like $75 (or whatever that number is) if you buy yer ticket in advance (prepay for a hammer). $125 or so if you buy it at the door (wait till they are finished). Making the difference significant will ensure more folks step up to help start the ball rolling, we'll give it some time so that everyone can spread the word, maybe it will sell out right off once it's set up. As you're a few short of selling out the full run of 250 I'll prepay for 2, once the run is sold out I'll put it on Ebay for $150 and get rich. If Theron gets $7500 in to start (100 people X $75) that covers the upfront for the heads and handles and gets him rolling. Once all the costs get covered the balance of the sales can go straight to the foundation. I don't know that exact sales number is but it's do-able given the amount of people who have stated they wanted one.

Will something like that work?

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Oct 26, 2009 - 12:07pm PT

As much as I would love to pay $60 for a sweet new hammer unlike anything you can currently buy on the market....that seems a bit too cheap, especially if money is going to Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation (mainly) and paying people to make things, etc.

I can't believe I am saying it, but charge more, make more, donate more. No reason to sell it for less than a BD hammer.

Redwreck

Social climber

Echo Parque, Los Angeles, CA

Oct 26, 2009 - 12:39pm PT

Yeah 75 bucks for a good hammer is still a really sweet deal, right?

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Oct 26, 2009 - 01:24pm PT

Liet me know when and where to send $$$$

Great job, folks!!!!!1

timt

Trad climber

Wheat Ridge, CO

Oct 26, 2009 - 01:54pm PT

Ditto. Just tell me when, where & how much. I am happy to pre-pay.

Zander

Trad climber

Berkeley

Oct 26, 2009 - 01:56pm PT

Cost is $60 x 250 = $15,000

$15,000 / 150 (my guesstimate of who will prepay) = $100 per

Charge $100.

I have my own business. Theron isn't going to make jack at $60. He shouldn't also have to finance.

Zander

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Oct 26, 2009 - 01:56pm PT

Sales Is a Task!

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:01pm PT

I can pre-pay for mine too!

Let me know when/where...

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:02pm PT

bd wall hammer retails for a buck. i can't recall pro deal on it but it's not wholesale.

if this rig is going to stay on the market, then you're going to need to charge market for it. for the front money, offer a pro deal discount ( a la couchmaster's post) to first runners who prepay. that will help motivate folks on the list to actually write a check.

Gene

Social climber

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:05pm PT

Let see. I figure you guys have a couple gazillion hours already in the project. Very much appreciated and I understand this is primarily a public service on your parts. I agree that the hammer should be realistically priced. Don't sell it, or your efforts, too cheap. If prepaying is the way to go, OK by me.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:06pm PT

I too would be willing to pre pay if that is what is needed to help move the project forward.

FeelioBabar

Trad climber

One drink ahead of my past.

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:10pm PT

Ready to pre-pay....

adam d

climber

closer to waves than rock

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:10pm PT

certainly don't sell it for less than other hammers out there on the market...
the Petzl hammer is ~$80, the BD Yos hammer is $100, Omega hammer is $95

some profit for the effort/manufacturing + donation to Alex's foundation is more than fair.

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Redlands

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:20pm PT

"certainly don't sell it for less than other hammers out there on the market..."

How about this kids: You spend your own money, I'll spend mine. You want to write an exra-fat check to charity, be my guest. But my charitable contributions for the year are maxed out. This thing goes over $75 to my door, take me off the list. I might be the only as#@&%e willing to say it, but I'm surely not the only one thinking it.

climbrunride

Sport climber

Durango, CO

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:34pm PT

I'm with Elcapinyoazz. Put it out there to us for what your think is equitable, and those who want to donate more to the foundation can feel free to do so. In fact, why are they waiting for the hammer to come out to donate? If they are serious about donating money, they will go ahead and do it now. I certainly don't wait until there is something in it for me to make my charitable donations.

And as far a prepaying, I'm in too. I figure we are all in this together, at some level. I'm happy to help fund it in advance.

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:46pm PT

Ready to prepay for my sweet hammer. What about a Paypal account? Easy online and quick?

Batrock

Trad climber

Burbank

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:52pm PT

Count me in on a pre pay. I can sit and wait a while for a good hammer.

climbrunride

Sport climber

Durango, CO

Oct 26, 2009 - 02:55pm PT

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are not talking about putting the D5 hammer in stores at a retail of $75, right? I was thinking that was the price to TacoStanders who wanted in on this opportunity.

If that is correct, I think those who are commenting that it should cost as much as, or more than, other hammers sold at retail are lacking some understanding of business structure. That being, that we would have the opportunity to acquire one of these hammers for slightly more than manufacturing cost. What you buy in a retail store has gone from manufacturing cost, to distribution cost (AKA wholesale), to retail cost, with a margin (cost mark-up) at each level.

YetAnotherDave

Trad climber

Vancouver, BC

Oct 26, 2009 - 05:05pm PT

So $75 is our projected wholesale cost, but us lucky folks on the taco stand get to buy at that price if we prepay? Count me in!

steelmnkey

climber

Vision man...ya gotta have vision...

Oct 26, 2009 - 05:23pm PT

Even at $75, it's still probably going to be a good deal. The "raw" cost as calculated is close to $60 and I'd say there's a pretty good chance there will be extra costs incurred (probably on a per hammer basis) at some point before these things go out the door. I'd have no problem with them pricing the thing at $75 at the get-go to make sure that they (guys putting all this effort into turning out the hammers) don't get shafted just so we can get them cheaper.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Oct 26, 2009 - 05:30pm PT

I will pre-pay any amount Theron chooses.

Having a hammer built by a pro with all of the thought and consideration put into it's utility is a true gift.

Thanks again for all of the hard work!

Oh and I just picked up a couple of those fancy Tomahawks....sweeeet!

Mucci

xtrmecat

Trad climber

Kalispell, Montanagonia

Oct 26, 2009 - 06:08pm PT

A full bill will surely tax my finances hard, but well worth it in my opinion.(Unemployed for over a year now and full time student) Where and how much do I prepay are the only issues left. I am still in and willing.

Bob

T Moses

Big Wall climber

Paso Robles

Oct 30, 2009 - 02:24am PT

Some of my thoughts on the subject at hand:

1) I think this should be available to STer's, not retail in stores. The pricing is not set up for that. I don't want to compete with the other companies making wall hammers. I see this as more of a short term revival of the A5 Hammer to benefit a good cause as requested by the previous owners of the design.

2) This is going to be a longer term project. We're talking 4-6 months. Forging alone gave me a lead time of 4-6 weeks if I remember right. The quotes I got were only good for 30 days. I don't forsee any major changes but it will take a little time and effort to get the whole ball rolling in the right direction.

3) I think a deposit might be a good way to go. I don't mind working on it without money up front. I'm used to getting paid at the end of a job. It keeps the motivation up. Net 30 is the industry standard (unless you piss your vendor off with consistantly late checks). The major funding that is needed is for the forging of the heads. It is one lump sum and is what I need to get the process started.

4) I don't have the money to front for this project right now. My money is tied up in cam hooks, rivet hanger, tomahawks, etc.. for next spring season. I do have the time to do this over the winter. Now would be great to start this.

It's late and I'll add more later.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Oct 30, 2009 - 11:37am PT

A deposit sounds like a good idea. You could also let those who want to pay full price up front do so also. That could make keeping track of everybody's payments more difficult. I dunno.

Maybe better to have everybody put a deposit down. Seems reasonable to me.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 31, 2009 - 12:12am PT

ok...

somethings have to get settled... like the price

once that's set, we can see how to raise the cash to get things going, probably a deposit on a hammer that can cover the parts as we go along. This would require some sort of schedule, I'd guess...

Perhaps some set of people could help by paying more and then getting paid back later...

We need some original thinking on this people! out of the box business stuff!!

squishy

Mountain climber

sacramento

Oct 31, 2009 - 12:31am PT

Have a bonus for those who prepay...

Cuckawalla

Trad climber

Grand Junction, CO

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:05am PT

What is the status I would like to pitch in for this bad ass hammer!
-Jesse

billygoat

climber

cruzville

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:09am PT

I'd also say couchmaster has the best plan. And I'm fine to prepay. Be awesome if we could set this up via paypal.

Edit: Opps, I only read half the thread before I posted. Somehow missed this when it first went up. Anyways...

RDB

Social climber

way out there

Nov 14, 2009 - 11:34pm PT

My vote would be pre pay via Pay Pal. And a price at the least within a few bucks (higher) than BD's retail for pricing.

Ton of effort has gone into this project.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Nov 15, 2009 - 01:14am PT

STANDIng BY the PRepaid button!

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

Mare Infinitum

Nov 15, 2009 - 08:44am PT

....with bated breath.

the museum

Trad climber

Rapid City

Nov 15, 2009 - 12:21pm PT

I was figuring on paying full price and full shipping. Everyone should prepay and no one should have to finance any part. If you don't prepay, you don't get one.

My 2cents

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Nov 15, 2009 - 12:47pm PT

with the "Prepay" plan it is a matter of timing....
...all of the financing is going into fabrication so there is no contingency.

we could request that everyone be prepared to prepay in a particular time period
this would start the clock on the fabrication

to do this we would need to have an expectation on the fabrication schedule once the capital is acquired to purchase the parts and services required

currently there is interest in 186 hammers, assuming 50% of this is solid then estimate the task to manufacture parts for and assemble 100 hammers...

assuming the time of the fabrication are proportional to the cost of each subcomponent, a timeline can be built to see just how quickly the whole thing can happen.... here's an example...

where the unit time is the time of the smallest step... which is drilling the hole in the handle in this example... some steps can be done in parallel if there are resources available to do it that way (one person might have trouble unless some steps don't require a person).

a real gant chart should be created if this is the way we think it will go.... and then we can estimate the progress against the plan... and also anticipate problems before they create significant delay...

Darryl Cramer

Social climber

Nov 15, 2009 - 02:13pm PT

I am up for pretty much any reasonable payment timing scheme you guys come up with. I can't see any reason for the guys dong the work to assume all the risk.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Nov 15, 2009 - 02:22pm PT

Ed,

You are really cracking me up.

Prod.

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.

Nov 15, 2009 - 03:31pm PT

One option may be for all payments/orders to be up front, before manufacturing commences. My preference, anyway. Given that the total involved is something like 100 hammers @ $100 each (manufacturing, shipping), that's about $10,000. (Need to budget for contingencies.) Perhaps half that total could be paid up front to those responsible for the manufacturing, with the balance paid on shipping. There are a few lawyers and accountants here, and it might be possible to park half in a trust account, as long as the conditions for its use are clearly stated.

I still want one.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Nov 15, 2009 - 04:38pm PT

You guys just let me know when you need my
dinero! Thanks for doing such a great job!!!!!

Zander

Trad climber

Berkeley

Nov 15, 2009 - 06:44pm PT

Whatever you all decide, I'm ready to pay.
Zander

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

Mare Infinitum

Nov 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT

What Zander said.
Waiting on the word.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2009 - 03:32pm PT

At this point I have exhausted all potential third-party financing options for the project and, given the economy and the fact this isn't an investment opportunity, it's completely understandable outcome. This was billed as an "Open Source" project and by definition is a 'you-get-out-of-it-what-you-put-into-it' sort of deal, so if we all want one of these classic hammers we're all going have to pony up and pre-pay for Theron to make them for us (me included).

That will likely mean setting up a paypal account / fund for hammer purchases and folks can start buy into the project. If and when we hit a minimum threshold that supports moving forward we will. If the minimum fund target isn't met we'll cancel the project and we'll all get our money back minus whatever the current nominal paypal handling charges are. I'll be getting together with Theron to figure out what the minimum fund threshold will be to trigger ordering heads from Ajax and starting production, but it will need to be sufficiently high to insure this isn't all on Theron's back. To that end I will likely suggest Theron establish and control the paypal account.

Once that fund is setup and available we'll announce here and encourage everyone who wants a hammer to buy into the project.

FeelioBabar

Trad climber

One drink ahead of my past.

Dec 1, 2009 - 03:36pm PT

Ready to pre-pay...waiting for the word.

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Dec 1, 2009 - 04:39pm PT

paypal isn't that nominal is it, especially after the charge back, no?

don't matter to me. I still want my 2.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2009 - 04:46pm PT

I'm personally prepared to take the paypal hit given it's hard to imagine another more universal and already-spun-up payment mechanism. Certainly open to suggestions on that front.

Jordan Ramey

Big Wall climber

South Pasadena, CA

Dec 1, 2009 - 04:56pm PT

i'm still down too

froodish

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Dec 1, 2009 - 05:08pm PT

Perhaps Kickstarter would be a good tool for this:

http://www.kickstarter.com/

You pledge to a project and only if it reaches its funding goal are you charged.

Unfortunately at the moment, it's invitation only, but it doesn't appear those are too hard to come by:

http://blog.kickstarter.com/post/172227888/where-invites-come-from

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Dec 1, 2009 - 05:42pm PT

Set up pay pal and I'll pay today.

Guy Kenny
AKA Prod.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2009 - 06:52pm PT

Kickstarter looks interesting, we'll take a look at that. Thanks.

ryanb

climber

Seattle, WA

Dec 1, 2009 - 06:54pm PT

It might be worth checking to see if we can get the paypal non profit rates seeing as how this is kind of a fund raiser for the alex lowe foundation.

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Dec 1, 2009 - 07:12pm PT

Excited to see this project manifest. Just need a price and a place, willing to put up full price.

Realist

Big Wall climber

Victoria Australia

Dec 1, 2009 - 10:18pm PT

Hi All,

I would consider financing the project, if we can get some idea on production time, current funding that is in the bank, confirmed number to be purchased, detailed costing broken down into separate line items and some form of written production schedule.

I am happy to cover the production costs for the entire number ordered as well as a written form of intent to purchase from those that are currently listed on the purchase schedule. If interested in the up front cash please email me at directord@overwatchgroup.com

Dave

Edit: I have the money in the bank and am happy to finance the first production run to save getting finance through an organisation. I will do this with some further discussion or email by the designers.

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

Sacramento, CA

Dec 1, 2009 - 10:23pm PT

Go Realist!
Disc Brake Australia could forge the hammer heads for less than we can in the USA.
Jay

Realist

Big Wall climber

Victoria Australia

Dec 1, 2009 - 10:27pm PT

Hey Mate,

The issue with shipping from the USA, then to Australia would potentially increase the costs above your $100 mark. Combined with that I would be importing steel for production in Australia, liable for import tax and then we would be hit for exporting and item for sale out of Australia.

There in lies the problem on that front.

I would not rely on someone picking the metal in Aus to forge then send to the USA as all the corporate knowledge lies in the USA.

Dave

Moof

Big Wall climber

A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon

Dec 1, 2009 - 11:53pm PT

I'm ready to pre-pay, and I'd be happy to front a couple hundred extra to help grease the works (all I can handle at the moment). Say the word, check, paypal, what have you. I know your good for it Joseph.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Dec 2, 2009 - 11:07am PT

Bump

Studly

Trad climber

Dec 2, 2009 - 11:12am PT

I'm ready to prepay also.

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Dec 15, 2009 - 02:00pm PT

bump

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Dec 15, 2009 - 02:05pm PT

Standing by the paypal button waiting to launch some cash money!

Mucci

the museum

Trad climber

Rapid City

Dec 15, 2009 - 09:32pm PT

Awesome!

perswig

climber

Dec 15, 2009 - 09:59pm PT

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2009 - 10:16pm PT

Theron and I did manage to get in a chat today while he was running his plasma cutter - will post up some status later tonight.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2009 - 06:27am PT

So this is where we're currently at: Theron is going to be the one actually making these fine hammer and so he's facing the real risks associated with producing them. We've discussed running out of gas on finding an angel money person - which is reasonable given this isn't an investment opportunity; we've talked about the paypal pre-pay option and I'm looking into the kickstarter.com pledge thresholding system as well. But Theron also talked about plowing some the profits from his other climbing product lines, like Tomahawks and Cam Hooks, back into the hammers. If that were the way we went I'd probably spring for the handles if he did the heads.

At the moment he's pretty busy with other work and so as soon as he can get back to it we'll come to final decision and I'll defer to his choice in the matter. Either way we hope to finally pull the trigger in 2010 whenever his production schedule gets a sufficient window.

Rock!...oopsie.

Trad climber

the pitch above you

Dec 31, 2009 - 07:33am PT

Sounds like a New Years resolution to me! Still standing by with credit card and an eager hammer swingin' arm.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Dec 31, 2009 - 08:11am PT

Healyje,

How many prepay customers would it take to do a production run? I'd be willing to bet that we have at least 40 or so who would prepay right now?

Prod.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Dec 31, 2009 - 10:09am PT

Bump for you guys.
Let me know where & when to send my money!!!!

Esparza

Trad climber

Westminster, CA

Dec 31, 2009 - 04:54pm PT

It is nice to see this community thread going like this. Kind of "grassroots" in a sense of supporting a local who is openly sharing costs and such. I think this is great. Cheers and happy new years...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2009 - 05:39pm PT

How many prepay customers would it take to do a production run? I'd be willing to bet that we have at least 40 or so who would prepay right now?

Forging the heads will run upwards of $4k+ when requoted by Ajax. Total costs for 250 hammer is roughly $13-14k. How many prepays are required depends on how much risk Theron and I (primarily Theron with his labor) are willing to adopt. Again, I'll probably leave that prepay threshold call to Theron as his labor represents most of the risk.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Dec 31, 2009 - 05:55pm PT

Seems like the competition is around $100 a hammer.

http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/Search_Results_Endeca_New.asp?N=0&Nu=p_rollup&Ntk=s_search&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&Nty=1&Ntt=wall+hammer

And there is nothing special about them.

May I suggest bumping the price to $100 a hammer, maybe a discount for prepays. Then pay for the forging when you hit the 4k mark? I'd be in and willing to wait it out.

Prod.

Gene

Social climber

Dec 31, 2009 - 06:06pm PT

I'm with Prod. Since this is a "community" activity that very few of us in the community at large are participating in, why not let us buyers remove some of the risk by pre-paying? The risk to buyers is nothing like the risk to Theron and the others involved with putting hard cash down to make this happen for us. I'd be happy to toss down the $$$ for an individual hammer rather than have one or two individuals take on the whole nut. And that would make it a community gig.

Thanks again to all involved.

gm

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Dec 31, 2009 - 06:10pm PT

what about Realist's offer above?
seemed reasonable...

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2009 - 06:23pm PT

Ed, pretty busy of the past month and missed his post, thanks for the catch. I'll get ahold of him.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 31, 2009 - 06:43pm PT

Dave, sorry I missed your post above and appreciate your interest in the project. To answer your questions,

We have no money in the bank at all

Looks like we have 180 folks or so interested in buying one

A presently unknown number of those are willing to prepay

Here's a link to estimated costs (x a quantity of 250)

Theron will be doing the production schedule which will have time built into it to [re]create/workout the heat treatment, jigs, finishing and assembly John went through with the original (he's been helping us from his new home in Tasmania)

Theron is already producing hangers, Tomohawks, and Leeper Cams out of his otherwise non-climbing oriented metals business and selling them through Mountain Tools and I've asked him if it might be possible that they could sell any remaining hammers from the 250 that we don't sell through Supertopo.

I'll send this in an email as well.

Acer

Big Wall climber

Jan 10, 2010 - 12:08pm PT

Well I would like to have one too.

5 years in the making.

MOsucks

Mountain climber

Generally MO but I get out of here every chance

Jan 10, 2010 - 12:47pm PT

Sounds like we need a count of people to prepay and maybe a new count of those still interested...

Acer

Big Wall climber

Jan 10, 2010 - 01:38pm PT

Looks like money is the only hold up. This project could be done already.

Reading the posts, the Project managers have asked for help but are NOT taking it. I am sure they have had multiple offers to fund the hammers.

I will right the checks tomorrow.

250 hammers will be made.

180 will be sold ASAP if not all. If not, I guess I bought a few more.

Costs covered. Lowe Fund is supported. Moses corp paid. Ajax paid.

Maybe I should get 10% as the Silent Partner.

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Jan 11, 2010 - 04:51pm PT

ready to prepay just let me know where to send the funds. With the lack of snow the valley is calling.

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Jan 11, 2010 - 04:55pm PT

I am ready to prepay as well...

squishy

Mountain climber

sacramento

Jan 11, 2010 - 05:12pm PT

Me too...

Studly

Trad climber

Jan 11, 2010 - 05:13pm PT

Ready to prepay.

and I'd pay twice as much if Bridwell autographed it.

I just finished reading The Stonemasters book by John Long and there is one incredible photo of Bridwell and crew top of El Cap after the first ascent of the PO Wall. It captures such a moment in history, and shiver my timbers if Bridwell doesn't look like a pirate in that photo with the rest of his motley crew chilling after a wild ocean crossing. Aye lads!

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2010 - 05:31pm PT

Appreciate it. The schedule, call, and payment approach will ultimately be up to Theron who will be carrying the majority of the risk - it's still in play and we'll keep you posted.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jan 11, 2010 - 07:11pm PT

As I said before, let me know where to send my dinero!!!

Thanks for the work, guys!!!

couchmaster

climber

pdx

Jan 11, 2010 - 08:20pm PT

Acer said:
Jan 10, 2010 - 10:38am PT
Looks like money is the only hold up. This project could be done already.
Reading the posts, the Project managers have asked for help but are NOT taking it. I am sure they have had multiple offers to fund the hammers.
I will right the checks tomorrow. 250 hammers will be made. 180 will be sold ASAP if not all. If not, I guess I bought a few more.

Costs covered. Lowe Fund is supported. Moses corp paid. Ajax paid. Maybe I should get 10% as the Silent Partner.

Excluding the last line, there is no risk to Theron is he takes up one of these fellas on the funding of the project.....

....Theron? I will prepay to get it rolling as well if you don't want to accept the entire funding outright as offered of course.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2010 - 09:21pm PT

Acer,

Theron and I would love to talk with you, the issue is money, but the previous offers have all appeared to have some investment expectations which we simply can't provide or offer in this case. I'll email you and please get back with me by email or phone if that's not the case.

Luke Malatesta

Big Wall climber

Moab UT

Jan 11, 2010 - 09:33pm PT

ready to prepay as well

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Feb 11, 2010 - 02:21pm PT

BUMP...any new updates?

T Moses

Big Wall climber

Paso Robles

Feb 11, 2010 - 03:09pm PT

Give me a couple of days. Getting a requote from Ajax right now. I'll give more details once I get them ironed out. I don't want to let the cat out of the bag to soon but financing might be solved.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

شقوق واس

Feb 11, 2010 - 03:14pm PT

Right on, Theron.
With you, man.

hoipolloi

climber

A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi

Feb 11, 2010 - 03:49pm PT

climbing bump

Acer

Big Wall climber

Feb 11, 2010 - 07:26pm PT

I am looking forward to it. But can't hold my breath.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Feb 11, 2010 - 07:31pm PT

Finger is waiting on the "Pay button"

Bump!

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Feb 11, 2010 - 07:40pm PT

ready to prepay.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Feb 11, 2010 - 08:43pm PT

I got a few hundy just sitting in my paypal account waiting to be spent.

Prod.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 11, 2010 - 08:46pm PT

We're pretty close - have to requote some of it as Theron said and then hope to get going on it. Theron will keep us posted on the go/no go and schedule as he has it. We sure appreciate everyone hanging in there...!

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Feb 11, 2010 - 09:12pm PT

My pitons are scared right now, I think they can feel the shift towards production!

Theron- you rock man!

Ihateplastic

Trad climber

It ain't El Cap, Oregon

Feb 11, 2010 - 09:19pm PT

Minus the A5, of course...

By the way, healyje... I am not ignoring you... just busy. Always my excuse, right?

JMC

climber

oilfields of Sumatra

Feb 11, 2010 - 10:54pm PT

I'm in for two. Been in since the beginning. Really want to swing one of these...
-John

Ihateplastic

Trad climber

It ain't El Cap, Oregon

Feb 16, 2010 - 11:10am PT

I have been hesitating since I love my old Chouinard... However, it lacks a good way to work with a funkness (no 'biner hole in the old ones and putting a sling over the handle is not hammer-friendly in the long run) so...

Put me on the list for one!

Linda Jarit

climber

Feb 16, 2010 - 11:57am PT

I'll take one and am willing to prepay.

squatch

Boulder climber

santa cruz, CA

Feb 16, 2010 - 01:10pm PT

i'd like to join this list. i can throw some money together to prepay when the word is given. thanks!

Acer

Big Wall climber

Feb 16, 2010 - 01:37pm PT

I will sell my cams for hammers.

T Moses

Big Wall climber

Paso Robles

Feb 17, 2010 - 12:41pm PT

Deposit Check for the 250 hammer heads is in the mail. The purchase order has been placed. I'll get back to you on a rough time of delivery. Initial estimate is 10 to 12 weeks.

Funding for the heads was provided by a climber that wishes to remain anonymous. The climber just wants to be able to give to the climbing community and support a good cause. With out this climber we would have had to wait until Joseph and I could scrouge enough money or found another way to fund the project. I would like to be the first to publicly thank the climber who is kicking this project off to a great start.

Prezwoodz

climber

Anchorage

Feb 17, 2010 - 12:44pm PT

I'll prepay, let me know.

If we drop an extra $10 or $15 bucks can we get our name burned into the handle? :)

Oh and annonymous Climber YOU RULE!

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Feb 17, 2010 - 12:54pm PT

Sweet! This is great news T Moses. I am stoked to hear that Mr Anonymous is capable and willing to move this project along financially. Thank you so much Sir! To every one else that has put in their effort to make this happen much appreciated.

I look forward to writing my check and swinging my hammer this fall.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2010 - 01:05pm PT

And we're launched and the forges are lit!!!

It's been a long process with a lot of serendipity, generosity, detective work, goodwill, cooperation, luck, and mostly patience. Many thanks to John Middendorf, Theron Moses, Conrad Anker, Pamela Hainsworth, Lewis McNeal, Russ Walling, and now this magnanimous individual for all stepping up to breathe new life into a signature piece of our collective legacy.

bringmedeath

climber

la la land

Feb 17, 2010 - 01:06pm PT

Awesome can't wait.

Ihateplastic

Trad climber

It ain't El Cap, Oregon

Feb 17, 2010 - 01:08pm PT

Just in time for summer!!!

Mungeclimber

Trad climber

sorry, just posting out loud.

Feb 17, 2010 - 01:15pm PT

grass routes exciting!

awesome!

whammertime!

huge thx to Mr. A. Nonymous

bluering

Trad climber

Santa Clara, Ca.

Feb 17, 2010 - 01:33pm PT

excellent!

froodish

Social climber

Portland, Oregon

Feb 17, 2010 - 01:47pm PT

Sweet - thanks to all who have kept this thing alive!

John Mac

Trad climber

Littleton, CO

Feb 17, 2010 - 02:00pm PT

A huge thanks to the person who is funding this and to Moses and Joseph as well! Any ETA?

Cheers

John

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Feb 17, 2010 - 02:03pm PT

cool... I might have it in time for a clean ascent of el cap :-)

T Moses

Big Wall climber

Paso Robles

Feb 17, 2010 - 07:19pm PT

I just talked to Ajax and they are looking like a shorter 6-8 week lead time. Might make it for late spring wall season.

Like Joseph said, thanks to all the other people who helped make this project happen!

mtnkid85

Trad climber

Montucky

Feb 17, 2010 - 09:08pm PT

Wow, this is great. Good things come to those who wait, eh. I dont remember if Im in the other thread or not, but Im in for one as well.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

walkin' the road to nowhere

Feb 17, 2010 - 09:10pm PT

Haha!
Nature's clean ascent.....With a hammer?

Hmmm. Wait. It's a clean, shiny hammer, right?

Yowza!

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Feb 17, 2010 - 09:13pm PT

I'll use it to smash tin cans and beer cans?

Though... I'm also in line to use The Birds hammer. So I can use one hammer for tin cans and the other for beer cans.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Feb 18, 2010 - 08:43am PT

Nature,

What route are you planning on?

Hammers and a nut tool are great at cleaning nuts. I would consider that a clean wall.

Prod.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

walkin' the road to nowhere

Feb 18, 2010 - 08:48am PT

Yeah, I was just pickin' on Doug.
He responded well, don't you think?

Cheers.

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Feb 18, 2010 - 10:12am PT

Slight thread drift but realivent to the conversation:

Funny little story Prod, Skully and Nature. Last spring climbing in Zion we choose to do Swoop Gimp, the route has a pitch and a half of a thin rp crack. While racking up partner and I discuss the need for a hammer. I ridacule the need for a hammer on a clean route and adamant about leaving it behind. Well....... my parnter trying to clean my portion of the thin crack can't get the HBs out without totally destroying them. So we made the decision (not without alot of grumbling and squabling) to rap and come back with a hammer to clean the thin gear. I tried cleaning while rapping by and agreed the thin gear needed the tap of a hammer to not destroy it. I had a nice big slice of humble pie that evening.

Here is the funny part about all of this. This paticular day was the last climbable day before and aproaching storm shut things down for 3 or 4 days. So we left Utah, went home, then drove back a week later after the storm cleared to finish the buisness with a hammer. Since it was my lead that had the fixed HBs i jugged the fixed lines first. As I get to the fixed gear I find like 3 nuts that mysteriously fell out of the crack and was dangling from the rope. I was able to clean EVERY freakin nut with no effort or hammer. My partner thought I was playing some kind of joke on him when he found the pitch was cleaned when he got there. The passing storm did some weird stuff to that crack and washed all the gear out. We never used the hammer, not once. Ahrrr!!!

Back to the all the excitement and kudos over our new hammers getting manufactured.

nature

climber

Tucson, AZ

Feb 18, 2010 - 11:04am PT

wow... that's a crazy story.

My plan is to solo either Zodiac or The Trip. I'd prefer Zodiac as I've done The Trip twice (last time I watch T2 cruise on by on Virginia).

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Feb 18, 2010 - 11:49am PT

Temperature and weather I am sure played a major roll Dingus.

E and I both laughed it off and was thankful for the bolted anchor. That sandstone is trippy stuff.

Prod

Trad climber

Dodge Sprinter Dreaming

Feb 18, 2010 - 12:23pm PT

T2, That is a funny odd story.

Nature, Zodiac is pretty straight forward. I have some notes if you want any info.

When do we pay for these things?

Prod.

Captain...or Skully

Social climber

walkin' the road to nowhere

Feb 18, 2010 - 01:49pm PT

Hammers!

Cool story, T2.

Cpt0bvi0u5

Trad climber

Merced CA

Feb 19, 2010 - 04:26am PT

Woooooohooooooo in time for big wall season! Can't wait! And thank you Mr. Anonymous for keeping the project alive! The community greatly appreciates it

GLee

Social climber

Feb 19, 2010 - 04:48pm PT

Glee is still in for one hammer

Thanks for all your effort Ed

Slabby D

Trad climber

B'ham WA

Feb 19, 2010 - 04:55pm PT

I just realized DMT beat me to the point, but here's some reality to support his theory....

In regards to the following story on Swoop Gimp I once had a very similar experience on the exact same second pitch where even with a small tapper hammer and a thin nut tool I was unable to to clean something like at least 4 or more nuts. My theory was that I climbed it in direct sun and cleaned it in shade, some sort of thermal expansion/contraction in that ampitheatre locked the rock down tight on those micronuts. Presumably they fell out the next day, unfortunately my time was up.

I always carry a small ball-peen hammer on clean aid routes. On sandstone inparticular a light tap does far less damage to the rock than more traditional methods (yanking on it) of removing embedded stoppers.

climber

Cardiff by the sea

Feb 20, 2010 - 09:16am PT

I find it interesting the same thing happend to you on the same route Slabby D. That thin crack is alive.

Slakkey

Big Wall climber

From Back to Big Wall Baby

Feb 20, 2010 - 11:13am PT

Cool, just saw the news been away from the forum for a couple of days Sweet.

rick d

climber

ol pueblo, az

Feb 20, 2010 - 01:28pm PT

just a reminder to all, I am the gimp of swoop gimp.

I placed maybe 3 clean pieces on the FA of the second pitch but about 27 LA's (back cleaning).

Dutch

Trad climber

pdx

Feb 21, 2010 - 06:16pm PT

I'd like to get put on the list and am willing to pay up front.

Thanks

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Feb 21, 2010 - 09:25pm PT

cross posted from http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=853495:

OK, the first and possibly only run of these hammers is for 250 heads. Given various issues with manufacture, there may be as few as 238 hammers...

right now, I have confirmed interest for 130 hammers, with a possible max interest in 206 hammers. There are people who have not previously shown interest that are now.

SO at some point we may actually run out of hammers... those who have not responded (see the list above) with their desire for some number of hammers should do so or risk someone else responding and getting in line ahead of them...

if you send email to me by whatever means always make sure to include your SuperTopo name, which is how my list is driven... while I know a lot of you, I don't know all of you.

You can also respond here, but I'd like to have your email to ease in communication. My mass emailings use a "bcc:" list so I'm the only one who can associate your email to your name to your SuperTopo avatar.

ONE MORE TIME: IF YOU ARE ON THE "HAVEN'T REPLIED" LIST PLEASE RESPOND OR RISK MISSING OUT ON THIS HAMMER

jbar

Mountain climber

urasymptote

Feb 27, 2010 - 04:14pm PT

Hey guys thanks for all of your hard work.
Been waitin awhile for one of them there framming devices.

Sorry if this is a repetitive question but I don't get on here often enough to see if it was stated in another thread. Do we know how much they will cost? I will likely be losing my job sometime in the future (maybe june, maybe next year, nobody knows)so the sooner I can pay the better.

dangry

Trad climber

the bay-sierra complex

Mar 15, 2010 - 06:39pm PT

any new updates? bump

klk

Trad climber

cali

Mar 15, 2010 - 06:54pm PT

yeah, i'm still in for one.

ed-- sent u an email

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 15, 2010 - 07:06pm PT

Have a call into Theron on the status of the hammer head order from Ajax. Suspect he's pretty busy with non-climbing work. One of us will post up when we get in touch.

Cuckawalla

Trad climber

Grand Junction, CO

Mar 15, 2010 - 07:58pm PT

I am supposed to be on the list, sent you a few emails... Maybe the list is not updated?
thanks-Jesse

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 18, 2010 - 04:23pm PT

We're getting close!

Ihateplastic has graciously volunteered his ecommerce site and webmaster skills to manage payments for the hammers. We don't have final pricing or any ordering / ALCF donation details yet, but we're working on them and we'll post them up as we work through them and they are available.